More Bus Moves

[jajuan]

Mariano's was basically a grudge match against Dominick's. Bob Mariano used to work for Dominick's and got pushed out. So he went to Roundy's and cut a deal - help me drive Dominick's out of Chicago. Dominick's had a reputation for high prices, deserved or not. Mariano's is almost a carbon copy of Dominick's in many ways, but they have carefully built a reputation of being "high quality at lower prices". So Safeway gave in and skipped town.

Regarding WalMart, there are what, a half dozen Walmart "neighborhood markets" in addition to the four Superstores in the City now? Walmart will soon drive Jewel out, a lot of folks are saying. And even the ones who hate Walmart for various reasons agree that is the best bang for your buck. If Walmart were to set up shop at 64th and Halsted, Whole Foods would be gone in a month. These guys are basically figuring everyone has to eat, and if they are the only game in the area, they will get lots of business, even if their prices are a bit above average. Convenience does count for something. Food4Less at 70th/Ashland is just far enough away from 63/Halsted that if one is walking one would not want to walk that far. Note that there is a Aldi's almost next door at 63/Union, but that is in a totally different class, basically Spirit Airlines VS United.

Folks have been saying for years now that Jewel will get pushed out by this chain or that, including Walmart, Food 4 Less and most recently Mariano's after what happened to Dominick's. There were even folks that said in the past that Dominick's would be the one to push out Jewel, but lo and behold it's Dominick's that no longer exists. And through all that talk, somehow Jewel still has the lion's share of the metropolitan area's grocery market share and consistently outperforms the competition. One big reason for that is Jewel tends to develop a strong customer loyalty among its customer base that can extend several generations of the families that shop their stores. They have customers that shop with them for years, and they pass that on to their kids who in turn shop with them for years as adults and also in turn pass that on to their kids. It's one contributing factor that saved Jewel from the bad business decisions of SuperValu long enough to make it to SuperValu selling majority interest of Jewel and it's other Albertson's aligned stores in the US to Cerebus Capital Management, one of the three business interests that had bought Albertson's soon after Albertson's bought Jewel pre-Albertson's parent company American Stores, Inc. The third was CVS Pharmacies, which is why all stand alone Osco stores became CVS stores when Jewel first went under SuperValu control. Cerebus markets its ownership of Jewel back under the Albertson's name as New Albertson's LLC. And it was SuperValu that didn't understand the Chicago market, and was making some questionable business decisions such as thinking because it was also a grocery wholesale supplier it could pad its profit line by supplying Jewel's local competition with products considered to be Jewel store brand items (Jewel's store brand SuperChill pop and Homelife tissue, napkins and paper towels being found in Fair Play, Pete's Market, and Cermak Produce for example) and thinking that wouldn't affect Jewel's bottom line. Ironically enough, soon after all the Dominick's stores closed, Cerebus moved to acquire Safeway. They made the announcement on March 6 of this year that they planned to buy Safeway for $9.4 billion dollars with the deal expected to close in the 4th quarter of this year. On the local level, five more former Dominick's locations are expected to open as Jewel stores soon.

[Busjack]

The Durbin page the link goes to mentions buying hybrid buses, but there is not word one about "converting" anything to hybrids. In addition, given the date, I wonder if this actually refers to the planned purchase of 150 or so additional artics that was being kicked around when the 7900's were being planned, in addition to the 4300's?

...

The conversion is in the 2014 CTA budget, page 73:

Congestion Mitigation and Air Quality (CMAQ) Grant

The CMAQ program funds surface transportation improvements designed to improve air quality and mitigate congestion. An $8.1 million grant will provide for the cost differential to retrofit up to 32 sixty-foot conventional diesel-powered buses to hybrid diesel electric buses.

The reason I mentioned the Durbin grant was in response to your statement about CTA probably intended 100 diesel artics and subsequently changed it to 33 hybrids. Also, obviously, something paid for the 33 4300s and that money was awarded in 2011.

As far as the 50-150 articulated buses in the requisition for the 300-450 40 foot buses, CTA has not made an award on that, said at the time of the award to NovaBus that that procurement was ongoing, and the 2014 budget says at page 51: A future order is anticipated in 2014 to purchase up to 50 articulated sixty-foot hybrid buses.

There is speculation in the "New Order" topic why CTA has yet to complete that procurement, but obviously it hasn't.

[ctrabs74]

Folks have been saying for years now that Jewel will get pushed out by this chain or that, including Walmart, Food 4 Less and most recently Mariano's after what happened to Dominick's. There were even folks that said in the past that Dominick's would be the one to push out Jewel, but lo and behold it's Dominick's that no longer exists. And through all that talk, somehow Jewel still has the lion's share of the metropolitan area's grocery market share and consistently outperforms the competition. One big reason for that is Jewel tends to develop a strong customer loyalty among its customer base that can extend several generations of the families that shop their stores. They have customers that shop with them for years, and they pass that on to their kids who in turn shop with them for years as adults and also in turn pass that on to their kids. It's one contributing factor that saved Jewel from the bad business decisions of SuperValu long enough to make it to SuperValu selling majority interest of Jewel and it's other Albertson's aligned stores in the US to Cerebus Capital Management, one of the three business interests that had bought Albertson's soon after Albertson's bought Jewel pre-Albertson's parent company American Stores, Inc. The third was CVS Pharmacies, which is why all stand alone Osco stores became CVS stores when Jewel first went under SuperValu control. Cerebus markets its ownership of Jewel back under the Albertson's name as New Albertson's LLC. And it was SuperValu that didn't understand the Chicago market, and was making some questionable business decisions such as thinking because it was also a grocery wholesale supplier it could pad its profit line by supplying Jewel's local competition with products considered to be Jewel store brand items (Jewel's store brand SuperChill pop and Homelife tissue, napkins and paper towels being found in Fair Play, Pete's Market, and Cermak Produce for example) and thinking that wouldn't affect Jewel's bottom line. Ironically enough, soon after all the Dominick's stores closed, Cerebus moved to acquire Safeway. They made the announcement on March 6 of this year that they planned to buy Safeway for $9.4 billion dollars with the deal expected to close in the 4th quarter of this year. On the local level, five more former Dominick's locations are expected to open as Jewel stores soon.

Good grief... My head is spinning just trying to let the history of Chicago grocery stores sink in...

Would it be fair to say that unions have a big impact on how expensive groceries are? As an example, in Philadelphia, Acme (owned by Albertson's), Genaurdi's (owned by Safeway, though I'm not sure if that's the case now) and ShopRite were the three big grocery chains in the Philadelphia area years ago. All three of those chains are unionized. A non-union chain, Giant, based in Carlisle, Pa.) has been cutting into that market share in part because of their lower prices; I don't think that's a coincidence.

[Busjack]

Andre. Whatever Chairman Bob's motivations, Roundy's investors (again mostly hedge funds) don't suddenly make that kind of commitment to a new market unless they think they can make a profit. From reports about picking up the 11 Dominick's, they might have overextended themselves. At least Chairman Bob has articulated what Roundy's business plan in the Illinois market is.

Jajuan. Why nobody wants to do business on 71st is apparently (1) their market research indicates that they can't make money there, and (2) nobody figures that the rate of return is going to be sufficient for the investment it would take. This includes small operators who took over such locations as the Dominick's on Damen, which Safeway closed twice, and one would argue that there is no shortage of food stores on Devon.

ctrabs: Apparently the situations in Philadelphia and Chicago with respect to Jewel/Acme and Safeway are similar; in fact nobody mentioned in Chicago that Safeway closed in Philadelphia first (but apparently found a buyer for the bulk, as opposed to Chicago, where Jewel faced antitrust concerns). Also, while Mariano's is a union shop, the smaller operators are not (and some of them do not employ English speaking labor). Maybe that explains why Jewel was twice as expensive with respect to produce and deli as the independent operators, but Cerebrus seems to have gotten their advertised prices down. Getting back to Mariano's, they undercut the independents on produce, and the larger stores have the "wall of values" to compete with Costco, but are extremely expensive on deli and fish, but that's what you expect.

But other than was was my essential point that, unlike what Garmon implied, you can't expect someone to set up shop if they can't expect to make a profit, let alone make expenses, I didn't know this became a grocery forum, and I think I will bow out, except by finishing that not even Fresh Moves with 3 buses could do that, with a comparatively large federal government subsidy.

[BusHunter]

It may have been nice Wal-Mart set up shop on the south side, but that is going to reinforce the notion that other stores don't want to be around them as they will suck your business away if you are too close. Now if someone is not going to make a profit somewhere it's there right to not build there. There are plenty of south side grocers like Food4Less or Aldi that offer cheaper alternatives than a Jewel or Mariano's. If the public is not going to shop your stores because they are too ridiculously expensive and people on a budget are not going to do that then that has to be taken into consideration as well. A real head scratcher, the Whole Foods in Englewood probably won't last, but maybe they are experimenting. To go organic is expensive and I think it's too extreme a notion for that to attract business there. If they wanted to be on the south side, they need to be where the higher incomes are like Bronzeville or far south like Pullman. Some business decisions are really questionable on the north side like the cabrini Target. I have never even seen anyone go in there and no one gets on the #70 with a bag of anything from Target. They might as well built in Goose Island. Maybe in time if they develop the lot to the west of Target it stands a chance but when is that going to happen.

[jajuan]

I would submit the local grocery business is a lot more complicated than union vs nonunion, too much an oversimplication when there are workers from both types of shops still getting their incomes supplemented by welfare while in the case of the large operators, mulitmillion to multibillion dollar revenues and profits are being generated thus leading to us the taxpayers subsidizing those big profits in other areas in the long run even though we have the illusion of paying lower prices; more complicated than negative market research that still can hold some form of a community bias (and before folks start flipping out, no I'm not necessarily speaking of race) when locations that on the surface wouldn't suggest making expenses or a profit yet somehow they actually do so; and definitely more complicated than a reputed grudge to settle by a grocery exec pushed out by a former employer. Yeah admittedly the discussion veered off course, but that's what happens when you delve beneath the surface of why former transit buses used by a food organization found their way back in the possession of the TA awaiting a possible and likely trip to the shredder after that organization trying to fill a perceived food gap failed to do so because they didn't completely think through how complicated meeting Chicago neighborhood food needs at affordable costs actually are.

[strictures]

Walmart has been the biggest retail grocer for several years now, bigger than even Kroger.

But national polls, personal experience & even admissions from Walmart are that the quality of their produce ranges from mediocre to flat out awful.

Personally, I refuse to buy produce at a Walmart, unless I know I'm going to use it within 24 hours, it always rots!

That's what independent polls have shown & Walmart execs have admitted they have problems in the produce department.

Walmart also admits that it's laid off too many workers & the #1 complaint against the stores is a lack of merchandise on the shelves, because they just don't have enough employees to open up the boxes in the back & put the goods on the shelves. On top of that, Walmart was hit hardest beginning in January, when food stamps were cut back by 20% & their food sales went way down & so did the corresponding general merchandise that food stamp users would buy.

As for the history of Chicago's grocery chains, the reason Jewel survived was that until American Stores bought it, Jewel was run locally, from its Melrose Park HQ, although it also had a Barrington office for years.

National was owned by the huge Canadian grocer George Weston, through its Loblaw subsidiary & was always a total mess. At one point, National was running four separate chains in Chicago, each with its own totally different two page newspaper ad every Thursday [National, Sure Save, Del Farm & Elm Farm, which was a discount store, similar to Food 4 Less]. It took years to change them all to National. When Loblaw sold National to A&P, it was one year after they hired Pat Boone & his family to do the National TV ads, which were a disaster, as Boone didn't live within a hundred miles of a National & people just made fun of him & the ads, which lasted for just a couple of months.

A&P of course was crippled by Huntington Hartford III's obsession with Hollywood & he & the family ignored the business until A&P almost went under due to grossly incompetent management & a close call with near bankruptcy.

Even Kroger failed here & sold out to Dominick's.

There were also a few others that came in during the 1960s, such as Red Owl from Minnesota & Lucky Stores Eagle division. Lucky actually tried twice, the first time they failed, the stores were sold to Dominick's. The second time, they stuck to only the suburbs, but that also failed & several went to Butera.

[artthouwill]

Spotted 4198 operating on 79th street.

[andrethebusman]

The conversion is in the 2014 CTA budget, page 73:

Congestion Mitigation and Air Quality (CMAQ) Grant

The CMAQ program funds surface transportation improvements designed to improve air quality and mitigate congestion. An $8.1 million grant will provide for the cost differential to retrofit up to 32 sixty-foot conventional diesel-powered buses to hybrid diesel electric buses.

Hard to say what this really means. It is possible to do this to existing vehicles, Translink in BC had two fuel-cell buses converted to hybrids. But why bother? Even for a bus a couple of years old, a $250,000 upgrade seems hardly worth it.

As far as the genesis of the 4300's, Seattle in 2008 placed a tentative order for 515 artics with an additional 200 "assignable options". Seattle has so far gotten 274 buses from this tentative order - 74 DE60LFA's and 200 DE60LFR's. At least 125 of the "assignable options" have been sold off so far - CTA got 33 DE60LFR's and 67 D60LFR's, Sound Transit for Tacoma got 44 D60LFR's, 13 DE60LF's, and 15 DE60LFR's for a total of 72. The other 28 have not been identified.

[Busjack]

Hard to say what this really means.....

Are there 32 other "sixty-foot conventional diesel-powered buses" to be retrofit?

Or is it, like most things in the CTA budget, fantasy land or bad proofreading?

[jajuan]

Are there 32 other "sixty-foot conventional diesel-powered buses" to be retrofit?

Or is it, like most things in the CTA budget, fantasy land or bad proofreading?

Sounds like both CTA fantasy land and bad proofreading. Andre isn't alone in catching that the 33 retrofits you found mentioned in past documents jibes with the 33 hybrids out of the 100 bus option CTA bought that became its current 4300s. And I have to agree what is the point of spending a quarter of million dollars per bus to retrofit them as hybrids when it sounds like to me that CTA could have asked for those asked for them to be hybrids from the start, unless the option was broken down that way in the original Seattle contract. Either way the cost still isn't worth it to me either.

[Busjack]

...And I have to agree what is the point of spending a quarter of million dollars per bus to retrofit them as hybrids when it sounds like to me that CTA could have asked for those asked for them to be hybrids from the start, unless the option was broken down that way in the original Seattle contract. Either way the cost still isn't worth it to me either.

When you are dealing with CMAQ, i.e. federal money, it being a waste isn't an issue to the locals, even though the differential would have only been $170K if CTA had ordered them that way. You have to wonder about those at FTA that approved this grant, but "green" sounds "politically correct." Thus, my conclusion that whatever money they had to get the 100 in time for the Red Line South wasn't sufficient to get 100 hyrbrids.

[Busjack]

More related to this topic is a Tribune article that "CTA is attempting to transfer the $1 million-a-year bill for cleaning up
graffiti to the vandals and their parents, officials said today."

The security cameras allow them to finger the perps, and then sue the parents.

However, given the concept of "judgment proof," maybe CTA collects $59.87 of the million (see Tony Sorenson's comment).

[andrethebusman]

When you are dealing with CMAQ, i.e. federal money, it being a waste isn't an issue to the locals, even though the differential would have only been $170K if CTA had ordered them that way. You have to wonder about those at FTA that approved this grant, but "green" sounds "politically correct." Thus, my conclusion that whatever money they had to get the 100 in time for the Red Line South wasn't sufficient to get 100 hyrbrids.

The Seattle assignable options were for either diesels or hybrids. So it sounds like the grant was for building 33 as hybrids, or possibly converting same to hybrids after construction started but before completion. I know this is in 2014 budget, but with CTA's money-juggling, the 8mil might have been "borrowed" from some other item last year as the grant was still pending.

[Busjack]

The Seattle assignable options were for either diesels or hybrids. So it sounds like the grant was for building 33 as hybrids, or possibly converting same to hybrids after construction started but before completion. I know this is in 2014 budget, but with CTA's money-juggling, the 8mil might have been "borrowed" from some other item last year as the grant was still pending.

How do you explain the word "retrofit?"

[strictures]

For about two weeks, I've noticed that the display monitor above the windshield has shown "Please Logon" or a variation of this. Anyone know what's causing this?

[garmon757]

I was getting ready to unlock my bike by Home Depot on Halsted near Diversey and I thought I was losing my mind because I was hearing the chimes that the 5000s have. So come to find out that it was a forklift (made by Toyota)(Home Depot's) that had the same exact chimes that the 5000s have!!! I was WOW!!!! That was cool!!!

[garmon757]

#1068 is operating #55A and #4022 and #4031 is operating #62 right now. #4340 is operating #92 (Yeah I know it's a school run lol). #1797 and #4053 found their way to sneak on #82 right now lol (probably school runs).

[jajuan]

#1068 is operating #55A and #4022 and #4031 is operating #62 right now. #4340 is operating #92 (Yeah I know it's a school run lol). #1797 and #4053 found their way to sneak on #82 right now lol (probably school runs).

4022 and 4031 are no surprises either. They're those school runds out of Kedzie that have been spoken about before. 1068, hmmm 77th is lending to 74th again after dumping all its remaining Novas on 74th, FG and Chicago.

[garmon757]

4022 and 4031 are no surprises either. They're those school runds out of Kedzie that have been spoken about before. 1068, hmmm 77th is lending to 74th again after dumping all its remaining Novas on 74th, FG and Chicago.

Yeah I've figured they were school runs on #62. That's the 4th consecutive week of me witnessing any 77th's NF's on some 74th's routes.

[jtrosario]

I was getting ready to unlock my bike by Home Depot on Halsted near Diversey and I thought I was losing my mind because I was hearing the chimes that the 5000s have. So come to find out that it was a forklift (made by Toyota)(Home Depot's) that had the same exact chimes that the 5000s have!!! I was WOW!!!! That was cool!!!

Do you mean the door chimes on the 5000s? Does that mean blind people are more likely to walk towards forklifts at Home Depot?

[jajuan]

Yeah I've figured they were school runs on #62. That's the 4th consecutive week of me witnessing any 77th's NF's on some 74th's routes.

Maybe 74th has been needing more buses now that the Nova count increased there by almost 40 and is higher than the NF 1000s by a 20 bus margin.

[garmon757]

Do you mean the door chimes on the 5000s? Does that mean blind people are more likely to walk towards forklifts at Home Depot?

Yes indeed but I hope that don't happen to the blind people. Very clever of you to say that though.

[garmon757]

Maybe 74th has been needing more buses now that the Nova count increased there by almost 40 and is higher than the NF 1000s by a 20 bus margin.

It sucks to say that 74th is being heavily low-balled by 77th lol.

[jajuan]

not exactly cause as was said in prior posts, the extras were always placed in a way that moved them to the busiets runs through interlining, (ex. 95E became a #108 carver hs run then became a #34 to handle crowds.heading downtown for the am rush and so forth) then taking into account the 26, 28 which although doesnt justify full artic coverage can definately benefit from a few more than whats popping up now. And even if thats not enough there's 77th which has had so many artics pulled that they now.only hold enough to cover the 79, leaving 3, 4, 87, 8 and 2 to deal with crush loads under the crappy excuse that "anything outside of 79th is messing up/crowding the streets" which wasnt even an issue compared to the narrow North side streets that NP's artics hit *cough* Marine Dr *cough*

More appropriate spot to talk about this than the rehab thread. The change in number of artics at 77th is close to six months old now and if you remember, I agreed with you that maybe more artics should have been used from North Park to help stock Chicago Garage. But to be equally honest, the uses you mentioned with 103rd still isn't enough to justify that garage continuing to have 90 artics with the Red Line project being over. And yeah the flap about artic uses outside of 79th is a flimsy excuse at best, taking a shot at artics being used on the 136 and 146 isn't going to change the fact that the large number of apartment highrises along those routes and so many residents of those said highrises use ride the bus on those routes justifies artic use on those two routes in some form.