More Bus Moves

[jajuan]

1 hour ago, andrethebusman said:

New York, especially in Manhattan, has bus stops much more widely spaced than Chicago. Also, artics are used in many cases on "SelectBus" versions of routes, which are limited stop versions like the old Archer Express. SF also has wider stop spacing than our normal 8 a mile.

The long dwell times are for several reasons:

1/ Artic rear doors are full air doors, even though they are "passenger activated" and as such have a sugnificant lag opening and closing. Only a few seconds each time, but with frequent stops it adds up.

2/ Normally you schedule fewer buses per hour when you schedule artics. This means more boarding and alighting per bus per stop. Again, only a few seconds per stop, but again it adds up.

3/ Say what you will, an artic being heavier than a standard bus is slower accelerating. Take it from somebody who drove both kinds regularly. Them there artics is piggy.

Add all three and an 8 stops per mile route and you have yourself a slow proceeding. This is why most examples of artics on regular local routes is based on the route having so much riding that otherwise you would need very close headways, so in order to keep the operating costs down, you accept the pokiness and delays. Clark is a good example. During the day it is almost all 40-footers, evenings and weekends artics as otherwise you would need a couple of minite headway those times. Costs do have a way of trumping convenience.

New York has artics placed on actual local routes that are not designated as Limiteds, which are their routes closer in line with how the old Archer Express worked, or SelectBus, which is marketed as New York's version of BRT. Also SF didn't really undertake the wider spacing than ours until fairly recently when delays there were getting so out of control to have earned Muni a reputation of being among the worst of big city TAs. Though you do still have a point about dwell times coming into play in scheduling decisions in that with recent expansions of the SelectBus network we have seen a number of those routes continue to use 40 foot buses after the conversion to SelectBus. So basically it seems to fall back on a larger point that had been made initially by Busjack a few days ago which I agreed with. And that's basically 300 artics seems to be proving to be too many for CTA now that bus ride demand is no longer what was needed a few years back to get the system through the rebuild of the Dan Ryan leg of the Red Line. Between them not working out on the 79 and now about to be removed from the 66 come the start of the winter pick service change, CTA seems to be having a hard time figuring out what to do with the extra artics not used on LSD express service or on the 22, 151 and 156. 

[Master58]

Now would be a good time to bring back X3 and X4 if the artics are going to 77th but i doubt that will happen most likely route wise and storage wise going to 103rd to make the 26 all artic again,  or spreaded between 103rd,  kedize and north park this is just how CTA works 

[jajuan]

29 minutes ago, Master58 said:

Now would be a good time to bring back X3 and X4 if the artics are going to 77th but i doubt that will happen most likely route wise and storage wise going to 103rd to make the 26 all artic again,  or spreaded between 103rd,  kedize and north park this is just how CTA works 

Who's going to pay for bringing back X3 and X4? There seems to be no viable demand for it as Dorval Carter probably would have tried bringing those back with the restoration of the X9 and X49, extension of the 4, expansion of routing and hours on the 26, and restoration of the 31 in his recent aims to enhance south side service. And again, with North Park already has about 130 artics, so it's not hurting for any artics and definitely does not need more. Kedzie does not have the capacity for more, or else it would not have been giving up routes and some runs on others over to Chicago in the last couple of years. Despite 103rd having some artics sidelined recently, it too is not hurting for artics in that it now has more assigned than Kedzie. Artic coverage on the 26, has actually kept in step with what it was since the service expansion, mostly artic in the rush periods and a larger use of 40 footers in the off peak. J14 has returned to a mostly artic usage. The only significant difference in coverage still in play is on the 6. So the only logical choice like it or not really is 77th if Chicago Garage is not going to keep artics on its roster. 

[artthouwill]

Possible 77th routes for artics?   Maybe the 2.  Ridership probably doesn't justify it, but it fits the profile of a LSD route.   The 8?  Ridership seems heavier on the north end,  but I think the narrowness of Halsted doesn't work.   That leaves the 3,4, 79, and 87..  Could 79th see a return of artics?

Perhaps temporarily the artics from Chicago will help 103rd return to normal artic operations while rotating buses for repairs leaving 77th without artics at least for a while longer. 

[Busjack]

6 minutes ago, artthouwill said:

Maybe the 2.

No way. No place to berth a 60 foot bus near the U of C./Midway Plaisance. At least it isn't going down 60th St.

8 minutes ago, artthouwill said:

Could 79th see a return of artics?

As I noted above, Andre's objection to 66 certainly applies to 79.

9 minutes ago, artthouwill said:

Perhaps temporarily the artics from Chicago will help 103rd return to normal artic operations while rotating buses for repairs leaving 77th without artics at least for a while longer. 

The rehab is coming up. The proposal reached the bid opening date and is now off the Contract Opportunities page.

[dann]

1 hour ago, Master58 said:

Now would be a good time to bring back X3 and X4 if the artics are going to 77th but i doubt that will happen most likely route wise and storage wise going to 103rd to make the 26 all artic again,  or spreaded between 103rd,  kedize and north park this is just how CTA works 

If Chicago is giving up all of its artics, the lions share will probably go to 103rd to alleviate their shortage-due-to-maintenance issues and I agree with jajuan that 77th will have to get over their artic aversion and put them on 3 and 4. The other remaining question is what exactly will Chicago get in return 

[Master58]

1 hour ago, jajuan said:

Who's going to pay for bringing back X3 and X4? There seems to be no viable demand for it as Dorval Carter probably would have tried bringing those back with the restoration of the X9 and X49, extension of the 4, expansion of routing and hours on the 26, and restoration of the 31 in his recent aims to enhance south side service. And again, with North Park already has about 130 artics, so it's not hurting for any artics and definitely does not need more. Kedzie does not have the capacity for more, or else it would not have been giving up routes and some runs on others over to Chicago in the last couple of years. Despite 103rd having some artics sidelined recently, it too is not hurting for artics in that it now has more assigned than Kedzie. Artic coverage on the 26, has actually kept in step with what it was since the service expansion, mostly artic in the rush periods and a larger use of 40 footers in the off peak. J14 has returned to a mostly artic usage. The only significant difference in coverage still in play is on the 6. So the only logical choice like it or not really is 77th if Chicago Garage is not going to keep artics on its roster. 

Storagewise yes 77th would be the choice however route wise that isn't likely unless you make #2 fully artic which isn't a bad idea ,  like I said they are going to spread the artics to the other garages with 103rd being the highest candidate its just the way it is like it or not 

[jajuan]

43 minutes ago, Master58 said:

Storagewise yes 77th would be the choice however route wise that isn't likely unless you make #2 fully artic which isn't a bad idea ,  like I said they are going to spread the artics to the other garages with 103rd being the highest candidate its just the way it is like it or not 

You don't know that anymore than the rest of us. They may do otherwise. Spreading them out at only three garages worked better when they still had just 208 artics. Now with 307 artics it's not a set given that that will be the case again given that there is no capacity elsewhere. Don't forget 103rd is rated for just 250 buses capacity wise just like Kedzie. For all we know, the artics may not even leave Chicago Garage since Andre only mentioned so far that the artics were coming off the 66. No mention as of yet that the buses are leaving the garage though. Either way we shall see what happens when winter pick changes are in effect. 

[Master58]

2 hours ago, jajuan said:

You don't know that anymore than the rest of us. They may do otherwise. Spreading them out at only three garages worked better when they still had just 208 artics. Now with 307 artics it's not a set given that that will be the case again given that there is no capacity elsewhere. Don't forget 103rd is rated for just 250 buses capacity wise just like Kedzie. For all we know, the artics may not even leave Chicago Garage since Andre only mentioned so far that the artics were coming off the 66. No mention as of yet that the buses are leaving the garage though. Either way we shall see what happens when winter pick changes are in effect. 

If the artics are coming off the #66 its a good indication they are moving elsewhere,  there not just going to have 45 artics just sit there in the garage not be used, where they are going who knows at this point will have to wait and see 

[jajuan]

1 hour ago, Master58 said:

If the artics are coming off the #66 its a good indication they are moving elsewhere,  there not just going to have 45 artics just sit there in the garage not be used, where they are going who knows at this point will have to wait and see 

I did not say that they were just going to sit there in no use. Others have made the point that the 66 is not the only heavy route at that garage. My larger point which obviously you missed is that all anything is until the winter pick goes into effect is speculation. However, a number of good cases can be drawn from different directions that are based in some type of logic and not just a wish list that don't fit facts as they currently stand.

[Master58]

43 minutes ago, jajuan said:

I did not say that they were just going to sit there in no use. Others have made the point that the 66 is not the only heavy route at that garage. My larger point which obviously you missed is that all anything is until the winter pick goes into effect is speculation. However, a number of good cases can be drawn from different directions that are based in some type of logic and not just a wish list that don't fit facts as they currently stand.

Your main point is 77th should get all the artics due to capacity , and my main point is i see 103rd capitalizing on get some of these artics to substitute for their artics that are down for maintenance. 

[dann]

2 hours ago, Master58 said:

Your main point is 77th should get all the artics due to capacity , and my main point is i see 103rd capitalizing on get some of these artics to substitute for their artics that are down for maintenance. 

And there's going to be room for them at 103rd because 40-footers will have to be sent up to Chicago in exchange, so there shouldn't be an issue regarding space. BTW, the 2 can use some artics because every time I see one of those buses on LSD, they're always SRO in either direction. It's just a matter of where they can terminate by the U of C.

[Busjack]

18 minutes ago, dann said:

It's just a matter of where they can terminate by the U of C.

Which, as I indicated, they can't, unless they are going to turn Obama's house into a bus terminal.

[jajuan]

10 hours ago, Master58 said:

Your main point is 77th should get all the artics due to capacity , and my main point is i see 103rd capitalizing on get some of these artics to substitute for their artics that are down for maintenance. 

But you ignore the factor that those artics that are down for maintenance are not going to be down forever. Unless you want to say they're going to be down the whole winter pick which obviously they're not. They're probably not even going to be down the few weeks until winter pick for that matter. Those artics are going to have to go somewhere, and they're likely going to be heading back to 103rd since it appears to be Jump wrapped artics that are down looking how it's largely 4300s filling the artic gap on the J14. So it's not just a capacity reason that 77th makes sense. 

[Master58]

46 minutes ago, jajuan said:

But you ignore the factor that those artics that are down for maintenance are not going to be down forever. Unless you want to say they're going to be down the whole winter pick which obviously they're not. They're probably not even going to be down the few weeks until winter pick for that matter. Those artics are going to have to go somewhere, and they're likely going to be heading back to 103rd since it appears to be Jump wrapped artics that are down looking how it's largely 4300s filling the artic gap on the J14. So it's not just a capacity reason that 77th makes sense. 

Majority of 103rds 4000's are down which include both jump and stimulus artics and have been down for months not days,  they should of already been cleared, its going to take awhile,  much pass the winter pick. Its just the common trend with south shops. 

[andrethebusman]

On 12/5/2016 at 5:12 PM, jajuan said:

Well not all cities. New York, San Francisco and Philly for example also run artics on busy local routes just as Chicago does.  New York and San Francisco have the advantage of three door artics though.

You forget the biggest user of artics as a percentage of the fleet - Las Vegas. Artics run on several main lines all day because of capacity issues (mostly inadequate service levels because of funding problems). If one has an artic, it is a slooow trip vs a standard. Plus WB is much slower than EB as LV is not flat. Vegas is a believer in minimal acceptable service, with msin routes running 30 to 60 minutes apart in rush hours. Also, LV has the largest double-deck fleet in the US, almost 200, and many of them are on local routes too for the same reason. However, even with 4 stops per mile average, RTC is an incredibly slow operation. I was absolutely shocked how slow compared to CTA.

[jajuan]

22 hours ago, Master58 said:

Majority of 103rds 4000's are down which include both jump and stimulus artics and have been down for months not days,  they should of already been cleared, its going to take awhile,  much pass the winter pick. Its just the common trend with south shops. 

A quick check of Maths22's tracker confirms that the uptick in 40 foot buses on the routes that tend to be majority artic at 103rd started about two and a half to three weeks ago. So your statement that artics assigned to that garage have been sidelined for months is false. Checking the artic coverage for a number of random weekdays from the earliest point that Maths's tracker still has data available at about 5 PM (a good point to measure CTA service at its busiest in PM rush) showed that for 103rd Garage on average sent out about 35 to 38 artics on routes 6, J14, 26 and 192 out of a combined maximum of 40 to 42 total buses on those routes at that same time each weekday afternoon checked. The small fluctuation of the maximum can be looked upon as due to a bus or two out of the bunch on a deadhead that may not have been at that minute on a different weekday. Picking different weekdays out of the past 19 days (the rough estimate of about how long the artic decrease has been occurring) at 5 PM shows that the artics tended to number closer to about 25 to 28 out of that maximum of 40 to 42 buses on the four routes observed through the tracker. So your statement that a majority of 103rd's artics being down for maintenance also appears to be false as well. Try again without the exaggerations sir.

The tracker did show that even with the drop in artic deployment in the busiest part of the PM rush, the 192 did not use any 40-footers. So basically what we've been seeing is the 40-footer count on the artic routes at 103rd go from about four or five during the busiest part of evening rush with mainly the 26 getting those 40-footers increase to about 10 to 15 40-footers split between 6, J14, and 26. And on the J14 that PM rush count has dropped back down the typical two or three at most in the most recent weekdays if 40-footers are seen on that route.

[BusHunter]

Sounds to me like CTA may be trying to float the fleet at 103rd and start these artic rehabs while the Chicago replacements come in. This way they can have 20-30 off site at a time for rehab, whatever the artic count is at Chicago. I believe something similar was done with the #1000's rehab. 

I'm puzzled why 103rd has maintenance issues with artics. Someone I know out of 103rd said they had a whole bay of non working artics and it seems like a regular thing. With south shops up the road, i would think repairs would be easier for 103rd than for places like North Park as they are indoors and close to SS. But I'd look at 103rd to get the first rehabs just due to this artic issue.

[Master58]

1 hour ago, jajuan said:

A quick check of Maths22's tracker confirms that the uptick in 40 foot buses on the routes that tend to be majority artic at 103rd started about two and a half to three weeks ago. So your statement that artics assigned to that garage have been sidelined for months is false. Checking the artic coverage for a number of random weekdays from the earliest point that Maths's tracker still has data available at about 5 PM (a good point to measure CTA service at its busiest in PM rush) showed that for 103rd Garage on average sent out about 35 to 38 artics on routes 6, J14, 26 and 192 out of a combined maximum of 40 to 42 total buses on those routes at that same time each weekday afternoon checked. The small fluctuation of the maximum can be looked upon as due to a bus or two out of the bunch on a deadhead that may not have been at that minute on a different weekday. Picking different weekdays out of the past 19 days (the rough estimate of about how long the artic decrease has been occurring) at 5 PM shows that the artics tended to number closer to about 25 to 28 out of that maximum of 40 to 42 buses on the four routes observed through the tracker. So your statement that a majority of 103rd's artics being down for maintenance also appears to be false as well. Try again without the exaggerations sir.

 

1 hour ago, BusHunter said:

I'm puzzled why 103rd has maintenance issues with artics. Someone I know out of 103rd said they had a whole bay of non working artics and it seems like a regular thing. With south shops up the road, i would think repairs would be easier for 103rd than for places like North Park as they are indoors and close to SS. But I'd look at 103rd to get the first rehabs just due to this artic issue.

As bushunter stated 103rd had a whole bay of non working artics so jajuan there were no exaggerations on my part.

As of today we're starting to see a turnaround with artics coming back into service on 6, 26 and J14

[jajuan]

5 minutes ago, Master58 said:

 

As bushunter stated 103rd had a whole bay of non working artics so jajuan there were no exaggerations on my part.

Umm you said most of the garage's artics were down. You also said that was the case for months. Maths22's tracker showed neither of those to be true. It showed the shortage started at most about three weeks ago, and that the number of artics sent out by that garage during the busiest part of the evening rush dropped by about ten on average. So sorry yes that was an exaggeration on both counts. I'm not saying you're intentionally lying, but your point of view of what's occurred is a bit slanted by what you want to occur at 103rd if artics do indeed get pulled from the 66 and Chicago Garage altogether, and don't fit evidence of what's actually been happening down at 103rd in recent weeks.

[Master58]

2 hours ago, jajuan said:

Umm you said most of the garage's artics were down. You also said that was the case for months. Maths22's tracker showed neither of those to be true. It showed the shortage started at most about three weeks ago, and that the number of artics sent out by that garage during the busiest part of the evening rush dropped by about ten on average. So sorry yes that was an exaggeration on both counts. I'm not saying you're intentionally lying, but your point of view of what's occurred is a bit slanted by what you want to occur at 103rd if artics do indeed get pulled from the 66 and Chicago Garage altogether, and don't fit evidence of what's actually been happening down at 103rd in recent weeks.

Either math22s tracker is wrong or the official tracker is wrong either way 103rd hasn't been using their artics for about a little over a month,  ive talked to an operator at 77th and he stated they aren't getting any artics. So when winter pick comes who knows where there going. 

[RJL6000]

6 minutes ago, Master58 said:

Either math22s tracker is wrong or the official tracker is wrong either way 103rd hasn't been using their artics for about a little over a month,  ive talked to an operator at 77th and he stated they aren't getting any artics. So when winter pick comes who knows where there going. 

More than likely mothballed. In addition, Kedzie may also lose all of its artics completely and join 74th, 77th and Forest Glen in running only 40-footers. This makes the only viable destinations either North Park (which clearly doesn't need any more artics) or mothballed.

[Busjack]

1 hour ago, RJL6000 said:

More than likely mothballed. In addition, Kedzie may also lose all of its artics completely and join 74th, 77th and Forest Glen in running only 40-footers. This makes the only viable destinations either North Park (which clearly doesn't need any more artics) or mothballed.

In that there was the requisition to rehab 208 of them, mothballing them doesn't seem very likely. There were NABI and Optima, but such would be a shock, especially since the 150 are on lease. Unlike negotiating with the feds and suing NABI, CTA would have to pay off the lease holder (I think PNC Financial), something like $60 million immediately.

In the meantime, 91 (4150-4207 and 4300-4332, except one that is now dead) were on federal grants, so CTA would have to deal with the FTA. Considering the new administration, and Rahm thinking he is going to get grants for Red Ahead, that isn't going to happen without the federal spigot being turned off.

In short, RJL, unless you got NABI like proof, like what Huberman was hiding, that isn't going to happen.

Of course, the big joke was that there was a solicitation for 900 articulated buses, and we are now discussing this.

[busfan2847]

13 hours ago, Master58 said:

Either math22s tracker is wrong or the official tracker is wrong either way 103rd hasn't been using their artics for about a little over a month,  ive talked to an operator at 77th and he stated they aren't getting any artics. So when winter pick comes who knows where there going. 

Yes they have I have seen artics everyday on the J14 while waiting for a 157 on Madison St. Yes there have been some 40' but I would have said at least 3/4 of the J14s (and all 192s) I have seen have been artics.

[BusHunter]

14 hours ago, RJL6000 said:

More than likely mothballed. In addition, Kedzie may also lose all of its artics completely and join 74th, 77th and Forest Glen in running only 40-footers. This makes the only viable destinations either North Park (which clearly doesn't need any more artics) or mothballed.

I can't imagine #156 not running with artics. It gets crowded with artics now. Plus the #151 shortliners could use some artics. That would end up putting a burden on np with the only lsd artics for the north side. It would be hard not to assume np would then take on some kedzie lsd service as the demand is there for artics but the np capacity isn't so this sounds like its not a viable option. I could be wrong though nothing is set in stone.