Night Owl Network

[MetroShadow]

I've started a new topic, mainly to not deviate from the 31st Street Extension.

A little off subject for the topic, but word has it they are also looking to:

1- Eliminate owl service on the 151 Sheridan route due to low ridership.

2- Eliminate the N201 owl service due to low ridership.

3- Reinstate owl service on the 72 North Avenue route to do ridership demand.

The question is really out of North Avenue, where service might justify a N designation (especially since buses to Pulaski already operate short-turn through 2 in the morning). Maybe service eastbound may prove otherwise (unless already covered by N9), westbound service definitely might warrant something.

[CURRENTZ_09]

My question is to promote better ridership levels on the CTA Night Owl Network why wont CTA promote that there is 24 hour services avaliable outside of the Red and Blue line trains. What ever happened to the Night Owl Brochures being avaliable outside of transitchicago.Com. Even CTA customer service acknowledged that they are out of print. WHY is that CTA?

[Busjack]

My question is to promote better ridership levels on the CTA Night Owl Network why wont CTA promote that there is 24 hour services avaliable outside of the Red and Blue line trains. What ever happened to the Night Owl Brochures being avaliable outside of transitchicago.Com. Even CTA customer service acknowledged that they are out of print. WHY is that CTA?

Real simple answer to this. At one time all L lines were all night (although one had to transfer to the Ravenswood at Belmont). However, in the 1990s, the realization was that CTA couldn't afford to do that, and that became more obvious when a customer service agent was required in all open stations, as opposed to the operator or conductor collecting the fares on board.

For instance, there definitely was not the ridership on the Evanston-Wilmette line, so the N201 bus was substituted. Now the indication from this board is that there isn't even the ridership to support that.

People know that only the Red and Blue are left, and given other demands, such as for the 31st extension, CTA doesn't have any incentive to subsidize a basically losing proposition further. It is like some German on Public TV last night asking why GM doesn't further subsidize Opel, forgetting that GM is Government Motors.

But, as I said before, come down to Chicago and buy a lot of products subject to the sales tax.

[Busjack]

The N151 only uses four buses during the overnight period.

The real issue is whether there is sufficient ridership to justify once every half hour or any service.

It doesn't appear that the monthly ridership report sorts out the N routes; in fact, N5, which is only night, is listed as 5. Maybe the door counters and gps give them some information.

[Sam92]

The real issue is whether there is sufficient ridership to justify once every half hour or any service.

It doesn't appear that the monthly ridership report sorts out the N routes; in fact, N5, which is only night, is listed as 5. Maybe the door counters and gps give them some information.

N5's ridership is reported together with the 95E according to the reports on rtams.org. As far as the others I can't tell. However I CAN tell you from regularly riding that N4, N5, N9, and of course the 79 has a pretty substantial ridership along the DEEP late hours. In fact the N9 ends up still running a little more frequently (20 min) with the stray 9's that run through the late night.

[NewFlyerMCI]

1 hour ago, renardo870 said:

Exactly!!! No N87 from 87th Ryan to 91st/Commercial or owl service on 28 Stony Island. Maybe they should look to resume service back to 47th Red Line. No E/W owl service between Madison and Garfield.

I've thought for a while the Night Owl network needs some overhaul. Lack of N4 service south of 63rd has been a common complaint on this forum for years, but there are other issues as well, some of which you just mentioned.

Ideally, I'd actually like to see the Orange Line join the Night Owl network (@MetroShadow will recognize this) , since it's only down for 3 hours max each night and the dearth of crossovers on line should permit it to run at the same headways as the Blue and still undergo routine maintenance. The SW side is also the only part of the city w/o 24hr rail service. However, due to the terrible walkshed for each station, it would require a number of Night Owl bus improvements in order to actually make it work. And ofc, the costs of keeping the 8 stations staffed an extra 2-3 hours. Personally, I believe it's worth the cost, but I see the hurdles for implementation.

Preamble aside, some of the ideas for that, I think should actually be implemented anyway

• N55 to Midway or Pulaski Orange (speaking of which, how does that bus turnaround? I feel like I remember a loop being there, but now it's just schools and parkground) and to 47th/Lake Park instead of MSci. Are there driver facilities at MSci? Or do they have to dodge into the Red Line during runs?
• N53 to Pulaski Orange. Right now, Western & Ashland are the only N-S crosstown routes overnight, and the 53 isn't a slouch for ridership. I'd also considered Midway since connections to the N63 & N55 could be easier made, but I acknowledge there's not an especially clear routing that wouldn't end up duplicative or serving no riders.
• Increase of headways from 30 to 20 mins on N62

To @renardo870's points

• The N60 & N62 are E-W routes (although since the N62 travels 59 "blocks" south vs 48 west, it's really N-S but we'll count it), but after that is the river. Idk how much the 35 needs night service, but it would have to be either that or the 47 (it's worth noting the 47 is only down for about 2-2.5 hours)
• I think an N28 depends on how active Hyde Park is at night outside of the university, whether or not it runs downtown or to 47th. Stony is about equidistant from the ryan and south shore, but Cottage Grove and I believe Jeffery as well are stronger corridors

[Mr.NewFlyer1051]

1 hour ago, NewFlyerMCI said:

I've thought for a while the Night Owl network needs some overhaul. Lack of N4 service south of 63rd has been a common complaint on this forum for years, but there are other issues as well, some of which you just mentioned.

Ideally, I'd actually like to see the Orange Line join the Night Owl network (@MetroShadow will recognize this) , since it's only down for 3 hours max each night and the dearth of crossovers on line should permit it to run at the same headways as the Blue and still undergo routine maintenance. The SW side is also the only part of the city w/o 24hr rail service. However, due to the terrible walkshed for each station, it would require a number of Night Owl bus improvements in order to actually make it work. And ofc, the costs of keeping the 8 stations staffed an extra 2-3 hours. Personally, I believe it's worth the cost, but I see the hurdles for implementation.

Preamble aside, some of the ideas for that, I think should actually be implemented anyway

• N55 to Midway or Pulaski Orange (speaking of which, how does that bus turnaround? I feel like I remember a loop being there, but now it's just schools and parkground) and to 47th/Lake Park instead of MSci. Are there driver facilities at MSci? Or do they have to dodge into the Red Line during runs?
• N53 to Pulaski Orange. Right now, Western & Ashland are the only N-S crosstown routes overnight, and the 53 isn't a slouch for ridership. I'd also considered Midway since connections to the N63 & N55 could be easier made, but I acknowledge there's not an especially clear routing that wouldn't end up duplicative or serving no riders.
• Increase of headways from 30 to 20 mins on N62

To @renardo870's points

• The N60 & N62 are E-W routes (although since the N62 travels 59 "blocks" south vs 48 west, it's really N-S but we'll count it), but after that is the river. Idk how much the 35 needs night service, but it would have to be either that or the 47 (it's worth noting the 47 is only down for about 2-2.5 hours)
• I think an N28 depends on how active Hyde Park is at night outside of the university, whether or not it runs downtown or to 47th. Stony is about equidistant from the ryan and south shore, but Cottage Grove and I believe Jeffery as well are stronger corridors

i can see the orange line becoming a 24/7 line along wit making a few corrections on some adjacent bus routes only route you got is N62 for the southwest side 

[artthouwill]

To add to @Busjackearlier post.

When CTA was ready to reopen the Green Line back in 1996, it didn't plan for owl service..  instead, an N3 qas proposed to be the South Side Green Line alternative.   People protested and the Green Line opened with owl service.   Owl service was 30 minutes between Harlem and Garfield and 60 minutes on the branches. Obviously with the Red Line running owl service every 15 minutes,  no one was riding the Green Line. 

In 1997, with other cuts, Green line owl service was cut.  The 4, which was already an owl route, became the default Green Line alternative on the South Side with the N20 being the default route for the West Sude.  The N20 was extended from Madison and Austin to Harlem and Lake 

It was odd that the 27 South Deering was an owl route from 63rd and Cottage Grove when the branch didn't have owl service.   This was remedied in 2003 with the creation of the N5, moving the owl service from 63rd and Cottage Grove to 69th Red Line station  

The Orange Line never had owl service with the N62 serving as the alternative. 

I think extending the N55 to Midway isn't a bad idea, but CTA might back since the N62 is nearby between Pulaski and Cicero. 

I don't know what the N62 ridership is,  but I'm guessing it's not enough to justify making the Orange Line 24 hrs.  However,  I wonder if CTA ran a pilot if ridership would build?

U think N87 should be extended to the full length of the route (91st and Commercial) seeing there is no north south owl service that far south between the Red Line and Commercial.   U know rge 95th and 83rd portion of the N5 is 3/4 to a mile to the south and 79 is a mile away to the north, but that gao doesnt exist between the Red Line and Ashland *western if you are talking about 79th. I understand why Cottage Grove doesn't have owl service south of 63rd, and it wasn't from lack of riders. 

U really like the idea of an owl 28, I just don't know how many people would use it.  I can think of any owl routes that don't connect to or substitute for rail service  

[YoungBusLover]

I'll be honest the only way any revisions would work is if CTA decides to promote it to the masses non-stop before implementing a pilot for them.  Extending the N87 to Commercial looks good on paper but in reality isn't warranted. I was the 2nd to last run out there a few picks ago and it wasn't much activity heading EB after 1:15 AM and then the WB trips was literally a ghost town to Halsted. Promotion dictates demand/ridership for CTA to be successful.  

[NewFlyerMCI]

15 hours ago, artthouwill said:

I think extending the N55 to Midway isn't a bad idea, but CTA might back since the N62 is nearby between Pulaski and Cicero. 

I don't know what the N62 ridership is,  but I'm guessing it's not enough to justify making the Orange Line 24 hrs.  However,  I wonder if CTA ran a pilot if ridership would build?

U think N87 should be extended to the full length of the route (91st and Commercial) seeing there is no north south owl service that far south between the Red Line and Commercial.   U know rge 95th and 83rd portion of the N5 is 3/4 to a mile to the south and 79 is a mile away to the north, but that gao doesnt exist between the Red Line and Ashland *western if you are talking about 79th. I understand why Cottage Grove doesn't have owl service south of 63rd, and it wasn't from lack of riders. 

U really like the idea of an owl 28, I just don't know how many people would use it.  I can think of any owl routes that don't connect to or substitute for rail service 

• If CTA really marketed it, the Orange Line would do better than the N62. People are generally more comfortable taking the train than they are the bus. When I had late night shifts at FedEx, I would just uber to Midway instead of the company shuttle, b/c it only took us as far as 79th/Cicero, where I did not want to wait for a bus at past 11p at night, even with other people. Even in Philly, I didn't mind coming back from campus at 2a, 3a in the morning when the trains ran overnight, but definitely switched to Ubers once they suspended the service due to COVID, especially b/c I had to transfer
  • The real issue with this, again, is the fact that 9/10, you can't walk to anywhere residential in under 7-10 mins from an Orange Line station. You'd actually probably have to keep the N62 if other bus changes aren't made (N53 & N55 extensions, maybe a N8, etc), which sort of nixes the use of 24hr Orange Line. I'd love to see how much it would cost to keep 8 station managers and 2-3 operators active for 2-3 hours.
• I assumed part of the reason for the N87's routing was lack of driver facilities. I know 91st/Commercial doesn't have anything (another point for a 93rd/Exchange bus terminal) and I don't recall 87th/Western having anything either, so that leaves the Red Line. @YoungBusLover can you speak to this? Then, there's also your account of ridership, which doesn't surprise me.
• As @renardo870 said, any N28 would most likely have to go to 47th Red Line or, as I suggested, State/Washington. This one I can't really speculate how useful it'd be though.

[renardo870]

87th to Western and/or N87 trips should be extended to 79th and Western Terminal where it's more safer for one and it would give some local service on Western particularly between 79th and 83rd St.

[Nova's at 103rd]

The Orange Line should be night owl anyway due to Midway although it’s a smaller airport. 87th ridership is really sporadic, honestly I don’t know why it’s has night owl service. I think 95th would pull more ridership. For the east side, the 15 would be smarter since it has higher ridership than the 28 and just about the same numbers as the 6, although the 6 or J14 wouldn’t be bad night owl routes due to the downtown connection. Cottage Grove should operate to 95th or at least 87th Red Line. For the southwest side, 53A is a good route from the Orange Line to 95th or 95th & Western. Even a route similar to the N5 for the s/sw side could offer better night owl service.

[artthouwill]

31 minutes ago, renardo870 said:

87th to Western and/or N87 trips should be extended to 79th and Western Terminal where it's more safer for one and it would give some local service on Western particularly between 79th and 83rd St.

Would there be room?  Those are three heavy routes not including the X49 and the 349.  As an owl terminal, that's different. 

[NewFlyerMCI]

49 minutes ago, renardo870 said:

87th to Western and/or N87 trips should be extended to 79th and Western Terminal where it's more safer for one and it would give some local service on Western particularly between 79th and 83rd St.

 

15 minutes ago, artthouwill said:

Would there be room?  Those are three heavy routes not including the X49 and the 349.  As an owl terminal, that's different. 

Owl service is one thing, and I actually agree, especially for driver facilities, but extending day trips at end at Western? There would need to be sufficient need that people east of Western along 87th need to get destinations along western they can't do currently by walking to another N-S route and taking an E-W route. There's nothing to serve from 87th to 83rd and everyone north of 83rd can just walk to 79th/Western. 

I also agree with Art, you have a suboptimal terminal layout with three routes that generally run every 15 mins or better (really, ev. 12 for the 79 & 49) during daytime hours every day of the week. The only saving grace of the 87 is that every trip isn't coming thru the terminal, unlike the 79 now, so it's not the scheduled every 14-15 mins, but a bus every 28-30

[andrethebusman]

N55 to Midway or Pulaski Orange (speaking of which, how does that bus turnaround? I feel like I remember a loop being there, but now it's just schools and parkground) and to 47th/Lake Park instead of MSci. Are there driver facilities at MSci? Or do they have to dodge into the Red Line during runs?

 

N55 trips do indeed turn around by going around the school on the NW corner of 55th/St Louis via a semi-private roadway called "Norman Bobbins Place" and St Louis.

[jajuan]

On 8/1/2022 at 8:01 PM, NewFlyerMCI said:

I've thought for a while the Night Owl network needs some overhaul. Lack of N4 service south of 63rd has been a common complaint on this forum for years, but there are other issues as well, some of which you just mentioned.

Ideally, I'd actually like to see the Orange Line join the Night Owl network (@MetroShadow will recognize this) , since it's only down for 3 hours max each night and the dearth of crossovers on line should permit it to run at the same headways as the Blue and still undergo routine maintenance. The SW side is also the only part of the city w/o 24hr rail service. However, due to the terrible walkshed for each station, it would require a number of Night Owl bus improvements in order to actually make it work. And ofc, the costs of keeping the 8 stations staffed an extra 2-3 hours. Personally, I believe it's worth the cost, but I see the hurdles for implementation.

Preamble aside, some of the ideas for that, I think should actually be implemented anyway

• N55 to Midway or Pulaski Orange (speaking of which, how does that bus turnaround? I feel like I remember a loop being there, but now it's just schools and parkground) and to 47th/Lake Park instead of MSci. Are there driver facilities at MSci? Or do they have to dodge into the Red Line during runs?
• N53 to Pulaski Orange. Right now, Western & Ashland are the only N-S crosstown routes overnight, and the 53 isn't a slouch for ridership. I'd also considered Midway since connections to the N63 & N55 could be easier made, but I acknowledge there's not an especially clear routing that wouldn't end up duplicative or serving no riders.
• Increase of headways from 30 to 20 mins on N62

To @renardo870's points

• The N60 & N62 are E-W routes (although since the N62 travels 59 "blocks" south vs 48 west, it's really N-S but we'll count it), but after that is the river. Idk how much the 35 needs night service, but it would have to be either that or the 47 (it's worth noting the 47 is only down for about 2-2.5 hours)
• I think an N28 depends on how active Hyde Park is at night outside of the university, whether or not it runs downtown or to 47th. Stony is about equidistant from the ryan and south shore, but Cottage Grove and I believe Jeffery as well are stronger corridors

On your point about night service on 35th, a restoration of owl service probably isn't warranted since CTA actually cut back the last night time full trips from 12:30 AM to about 11ish to 11:30 due to a decline in late night ridership.

[MetroShadow]

On 8/1/2022 at 3:31 PM, renardo870 said:

Exactly!!! No N87 from 87th Ryan to 91st/Commercial or owl service on 28 Stony Island. Maybe they should look to resume service back to 47th Red Line. No E/W owl service between Madison and Garfield.

 

On 8/1/2022 at 3:13 PM, NewFlyerMCI said:

Absolutely baffling that there is no N-S OWL service btwn the lake and the ryan. If the N9 can manage, so can the N4. Hell, have an officer assigned the bus driver if the N4 south of 63rd would be that much more unsafe than how I’m sure the N79 is perceived 

N5, friends. 

[NewFlyerMCI]

1 hour ago, MetroShadow said:

 

N5, friends. 

More of a circulator, then an E-W service, than N-S

[MetroShadow]

On 8/9/2022 at 8:08 AM, NewFlyerMCI said:

More of a circulator, then an E-W service, than N-S

We're gonna agree to disagree. A circulator makes a complete circle (or in some cases, that's what the Red Line is) - where this a combination of 5 (or 6) different routes, not uncommon to do.

[artthouwill]

17 minutes ago, MetroShadow said:

We're gonna agree to disagree. A circulator makes a complete circle (or in some cases, that's what the Red Line is) - where this a combination of 5 (or 6) different routes, not uncommon to do.

The answer is 4 routes, three current routes and one former route

The three current routes:

• 67 between 69/Red Line and 67th/Jeffery

° 71 between 75th/Exchange and 92nd/Commercial 

• 95 between 92nd/Commercial and 95th/Red Line. 

The former route is the 27 South Deering owl routing between 67th/Jeffery and 92nd/Commercial.   The route south of 75th is incorporated into the 71 as the current 71 is a combination of the original 71 and the 27.

[Busjack]

21 minutes ago, artthouwill said:

The answer is 4 routes, three current routes and one former route

The three current routes:

• 67 between 69/Red Line and 67th/Jeffery

° 71 between 75th/Exchange and 92nd/Commercial 

• 95 between 92nd/Commercial and 95th/Red Line. 

The former route is the 27 South Deering owl routing between 67th/Jeffery and 92nd/Commercial.   The route south of 75th is incorporated into the 71 as the current 71 is a combination of the original 71 and the 27.

As @MetroShadowsaid, that's the N5. Only question is whether it is less confusing to keep N5 nomenclature or flip the sign at each interline point.

[artthouwill]

1 minute ago, Busjack said:

As @MetroShadowsaid, that's the N5. Only question is whether it is less confusing to keep N5 nomenclature or flip the sign at each interline point.

My thought is to get rid of the N5 name  and just flip the signs.

[MetroShadow]

1 hour ago, artthouwill said:

I get your point.  But Oace has done it with a route that ends at one point but continues as another route. A current example is the 305/316 combo which once was all 305.  But it was rerouted to serve the Cicero Blue Line station.  The portion between the Forest Park station and the Cicero station retained the 305 and the pirtion between the Cicero station and Morton College was renumbered 316.  

At one time,  certain NB 307 trips ended at Harlem/South Blvd bur continued north on Harlem as a 318 North Avenue.  It's not difficult and can be done   .  The driver only has to drive rge route and the signage automatically changes 

Those are interlines. And oft-times those make the most sense when you're switching routes on the same bus. West Division does this quite well for a long time.

It makes zero sense to the user and customer if you're asking Clever to flip multiple times, especially with overlaps in many places (95-71-75-15-6-67). The N5 designation should stay as it makes the most sense operationally. 

Other example: AC Transit has their 800 series Night Owls covering multiple routes at a time:

• 800 is combo of Transbay (F), 6, 51B, 72 (North of University), and 72M
• 801 is a combo of the 10 and 99
• 802 is the 72 (South of University)
• 805 is the NL, 57, and 73 to Oakland Airport
• 840 is the 40
• 851 is the entire 51A and 51B (only to the UC Campus)

For this case, it makes no sense to flip the signs for multiple routes - a designated number series and destination is suffice.

 

9 hours ago, artthouwill said:

The answer is 4 routes, three current routes and one former route

The three current routes:

• 67 between 69/Red Line and 67th/Jeffery

° 71 between 75th/Exchange and 92nd/Commercial 

• 95 between 92nd/Commercial and 95th/Red Line. 

The former route is the 27 South Deering owl routing between 67th/Jeffery and 92nd/Commercial.   The route south of 75th is incorporated into the 71 as the current 71 is a combination of the original 71 and the 27.

You left out the 6, 15, and 75. And leaving out the 26 makes it Seven.

[artthouwill]

5 minutes ago, MetroShadow said:

Those are interlines. And oft-times those make the most sense when you're switching routes on the same bus. West Division does this quite well for a long time.

It makes zero sense to the user and customer if you're asking Clever to flip multiple times, especially with overlaps in many places (95-71-75-15-6-67). The N5 designation should stay as it makes the most sense operationally. 

Other example: AC Transit has their 800 series Night Owls covering multiple routes at a time:

• 800 is combo of Transbay (F), 6, 51B, 72 (North of University), and 72M
• 801 is a combo of the 10 and 99
• 802 is the 72 (South of University)
• 805 is the NL, 57, and 73 to Oakland Airport
• 840 is the 40
• 851 is the entire 51A and 51B (only to the UC Campus)

For this case, it makes no sense to flip the signs for multiple routes - a designated number series and destination is suffice.

 

You left out the 6, 15, and 75. And leaving out the 26 makes it Seven.

The N5 shares routing with the 6. 15,  and 75, but isn't replacement of owl service for those routes.  In the case of the 6 and the 15, those routes are still running when the N5 starts running.  As I explained earlier,  the Jeffery  portion of the route was covered by the owl routing of the old 27.  The original routing was 73rd NOT 75th.  When the 27 was rerouted to South Shore Drive in the early 80s, 73rd was no longer an option because it was a one way side street  between South Shore and Exchange.   So the owl routing along Jeffery was extended to 75th and 75th to South Shore since it is a two way thoroughfare to the lake.

When the N5 starts,  EB 67 service is curtailed at the. 69th Red Line station.  When the N5 starts, so does the N9, covering 95th between Commercial and Ashland  

[Anthony Devera]

How does the following proposal sound:

• OWL service on route 71 between 69th Red Line and 91st/Commercial
• N9 gets cut to Ashland/95th
• OWL service on route 95 between 95th/Ashland and 91st/Commercial, interlining with N71 at 91st/Commercial
• Discontinue N5

I made this proposal such that it overlaps the daytime routes as much as possible, and it also provides better route spacing between 63rd and 79th. The only downside I can see with this proposal is that riders along Ashland lose the direct connection to 95th station.

Also, should this discussion be moved to a different topic? I believe this topic is supposed to be about the X4, not the N5.