7000-series - Delivery & Updates

[Busjack]

32 minutes ago, geneking7320 said:

Have you heard of the forthcoming MARTA CQ-400 cars?

Note the line colors displayed on the cab end of the car.

CTA could do the latter with the LEDs around the headlights.

The essential problem here is  that most new heavy rail cars and LRTs are streamlined articulated units, but basically going back to the 1940s 5000s, they don't fit CTA dimensions.

[rl12383]

https://www.chicagobusiness.com/transportation/cta-federal-grant-new-train-cars?utm_source=morning-10&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=20230504&utm_content=article2-headline

 

This should answer the question on the replacement of the 3200s

[Busjack]

2 hours ago, rl12383 said:

https://www.chicagobusiness.com/transportation/cta-federal-grant-new-train-cars?utm_source=morning-10&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=20230504&utm_content=article2-headline

 

This should answer the question on the replacement of the 3200s

It said go toward 300 cars, but not which 300. Still. more money than the feds usually provide.

[geneking7320]

20 hours ago, Busjack said:

CTA could do the latter with the LEDs around the headlights.

The essential problem here is  that most new heavy rail cars and LRTs are streamlined articulated units, but basically going back to the 1940s 5000s, they don't fit CTA dimensions.

Busjack;

You got the idea about the LEDs ? .  If the Skokie shops could be expanded to contemplate  200 foot lifts how about

open gallery cars having a length of 4 current CTA cars. That would save the cost of 2 cabs and provide more rider space.

[artthouwill]

1 hour ago, geneking7320 said:

Busjack;

You got the idea about the LEDs ? .  If the Skokie shops could be expanded to contemplate  200 foot lifts how about

open gallery cars having a length of 4 current CTA cars. That would save the cost of 2 cabs and provide more rider space.

First, the tight turning radius if the cars makes open gangway impossible.  There would be no extra capacity.  Just watch how close the cars get to each other on the turns on ion the sides of the turning cars in the turning direction.  

CTA has also been able to be flexible with the married coupled cars.  In a 4 car open gangway type operation, losing 4 cars total because one car has a problem makes it inefficient.  We will see how this plays out in New York as only one line is scheduled to get these type of cars.  

[Busjack]

6 hours ago, rl12383 said:

https://www.chicagobusiness.com/transportation/cta-federal-grant-new-train-cars?utm_source=morning-10&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=20230504&utm_content=article2-headline

 

This should answer the question on the replacement of the 3200s

 

4 hours ago, Busjack said:

It said go toward 300 cars, but not which 300. Still. more money than the feds usually provide.

Here's an open source from DOT: Biden-Harris Administration Announces More Than $700 Million in Grants to Replace Aging Passenger Railcars in Six Transit Systems. In that it says:

The Chicago Transit Authority (CTA) will receive $200 million to buy up to 300 new electric propulsion passenger railcars to replace railcars that have been operating since the 1980s.

it doesn't say anything about the 3200s, which arrived in 1992.

While I said "more money than the feds usually provide," the program page says:

The federal share is not to exceed 80 percent of the net project cost. The maximum share of the grant funding cannot exceed 50 percent of the net project cost.

For example, a rail vehicle replacement project with a total eligible cost of $100,000,000 may receive up to $50,000,000 from this program.  The remaining $50,000,000 could be provided from a combination of non-Federal and other Federal funds, up to $30,000,000 of which could be other Federal funding.  For a $100,000,000 project, at least $20,000,000 (20%) must be non-Federal funds.

Since a 7000 costs about $1.6 million, 300 would be $480 million, so, this grant is for about 41%.

 

 

[Kevin]

CTA gets $200M in federal funds for ‘next generation of railcars’

Quote

A spokesperson for the CTA said the funds would be used to “begin designing and planning for the future procurement of our next-generation of railcars” to replace the agency’s oldest carriages. The federal announcement stated the money would go toward buying “up to 300 new electric propulsion passenger railcars.”

[...]

“Like many older transit systems, the CTA must regularly invest in modernizing its fleet to replace aging vehicles that are beyond their useful life,” said CTA President Dorval R. Carter Jr.  in a statement Friday. “[The] CTA now has funding needed to begin planning and designing for the future procurement of our next-generation of railcars, which will allow us to provide our riders with safer and more reliable rail services, as well as improved technologies to make public transit a more convenient and accessible travel option.”

Emphasis mine. I think something's up. The 7000-series contract has more than enough options to replace the entire fleet minus the 5000-series.

[Busjack]

31 minutes ago, Kevin said:

CTA gets $200M in federal funds for ‘next generation of railcars’

Emphasis mine. I think something's up. The 7000-series contract has more than enough options to replace the entire fleet minus the 5000-series.

The  last sentence is correct. However the various references in the DOT release to cars operating since the 1980s and average age of 40 years (obviously not the entire fleet if the oldest are 40 years old; my calculation for the entire fleet is 24 years) indicate that the 3200s are not included.

Note that the article also said:

The spokesperson also said it was “too early” to speak about specifics of how the money would be used.

But given the usual lack of clarity, the only thing that would be definitive would be a CT Board ordinance to exercise options 1 and 2.

[Kevin]

CTA gets $200M in federal funding for new ‘L’ cars

Quote

The latest funding is set to go to the next generation of rail cars: the 9000-series.

 

[artthouwill]

8 minutes ago, Kevin said:

CTA gets $200M in federal funding for new ‘L’ cars

 

My question would be does CTA have enough funding already to exercise the options for the 7000s?  I thought the base order of 7000s would completely replace the 2600s sans work cars and option 1 of the order would replace the 3200s.   I thought option 2 would provide enough equipment to expand the fleet for the Red Line Extension.  Since CTA rail cars seem to last for at least 30 years, it would seem like the 5000s wouldn't be eligible for retirement until about 2040.  So I guess I'm not clear on the 9000s unless CTA isn't going to exercise options on the 7000s and put out a new bid.

[Kevin]

1 minute ago, artthouwill said:

So I guess I'm not clear on the 9000s unless CTA isn't going to exercise options on the 7000s and put out a new bid.

My guess at this point is that CTA is not planning to exercise options on the 7000s. 

[Busjack]

On 5/5/2023 at 8:45 PM, Kevin said:

CTA gets $200M in federal funds for ‘next generation of railcars’

Emphasis mine. I think something's up. The 7000-series contract has more than enough options to replace the entire fleet minus the 5000-series.

On 5/5/2023 at 9:58 PM, Kevin said:

The latest funding is set to go to the next generation of rail cars: the 9000-series.

It isn't going to be both.

On 5/5/2023 at 10:15 PM, artthouwill said:

 I thought the base order of 7000s would completely replace the 2600s sans work cars and option 1 of the order would replace the 3200s.   I thought option 2 would provide enough equipment to expand the fleet for the Red Line Extension.

The breakdown was base 400, Option 1 156, Option 2 100 (or vice versa), Options 3 and 4 "for expansion" 190. The total of 256 for Options 1 & 2 would add up to the 3200s.

[Ruminations not consistent with later thoughts deleted]

[Busjack]

Apparently  the Tribune article came from this Quigley press release, which apparently has Dorval Carter's imprimatur. My conclusion is that something may be up, and we're back to the Kruesi/Huberman/Claypool eras of obfuscation. To get back to @rl12383, maybe the 3200s will be the 40 year old cars in 2032.

[Busjack]

Update: Based on stuff like the CTA capital plan on CMAP, I think I figured this one out, but I'll let Carter explain himself. Maybe CTA realized that after having withdrawn 2 procurements (the "3500" series and original 7000s one) for being behind the technological curve, maybe it had ended up there again.

As of 5/8, CTA republished the Quigley release (or vice versa).

[artthouwill]

4 hours ago, Busjack said:

Update: Based on stuff like the CTA capital plan on CMAP, I think I figured this one out, but I'll let Carter explain himself. Maybe CTA realized that after having withdrawn 2 procurements (the "3500" series and original 7000s one) for being behind the technological curve, maybe it had ended up there again.

As of 5/8, CTA republished the Quigley release (or vice versa).

So does this mean that CTA won't exercise any options for the 7000s and use the 9000 series to replace the 3200s?  Or will the 9000s expand the fleet for the Red Line extension and CTA won't exercise the latter options of the 7000s ( but exercise options 1 and 2)?

[Busjack]

1 hour ago, artthouwill said:

So does this mean that CTA won't exercise any options for the 7000s and use the 9000 series to replace the 3200s?  Or will the 9000s expand the fleet for the Red Line extension and CTA won't exercise the latter options of the 7000s ( but exercise options 1 and 2)?

A little more on my theory. I'll take @Kevin's second alternative that CTA won't exercise the options. CMAP said CTA had enough state bond funds for Option 1 of 156 cars. This grant needs a match. Suddenly, 300 cars are funded. But not 7000s.

RLE is only supposed to take 84 cars, and I assume that the funding for that will include cars, so that wouldn't be included in this grant. UPDATE: The Federal Register call for proposals says "Replacement is defined as the number of vehicles required to replace the number of vehicles to be removed from service that are substantially the same type" and "Fleet expansion projects are also not eligible under this program. If a procurement includes both expansion and replacement vehicles, only the cost of the replacement vehicles may be included in the total eligible project cost under this program," so it's not for RLE.

But, as I said, Dorval Carter hasn't told me bupkis.

[Busjack]

Maybe related, maybe not. Mass Transit Magazine says CRRC MA is having all sorts of problems with its MBTA and SEPTA contracts. Similar report in Mass Live.

CTA may be thinking like TTC, when Bombardier was blowing deadlines, made a back-up contract with Alstom for concurrent deliveries.

[Jackson Blue Line]

So the 7000 series delivery has been cancelled completely?

[Mr.NewFlyer1279]

7000’s Update: deliveries will resume late june/early july 

[artthouwill]

43 minutes ago, Jackson Blue Line said:

So the 7000 series delivery has been cancelled completely?

No.  At least not yet.  All we know is that deliveries are at the very least very slow.  We heard about a potential problem with the 7000s but that hasn't been verified

  

 

[Jackson Blue Line]

1 hour ago, Mr.NewFlyer1279 said:

7000’s Update: deliveries will resume late june/early july 

And you have yet to state where you got this information from.

[Busjack]

2 hours ago, Jackson Blue Line said:

So the 7000 series delivery has been cancelled completely?

That would require that the CT Board declare a default, but reviewing the ordinances indicates that hasn't happened. The articles on SEPTA and MBTA indicate that the favored course is demand performance and impose contractual penalties, which CTA said at various times it did against Bombardier.

On the other hand, reviewing the ordinances indicates that the CT Board hasn't exercised any of the options.

[Jackson Blue Line]

19 minutes ago, Busjack said:

That would require that the CT Board declare a default, but reviewing the ordinances indicates that hasn't happened. The articles on SEPTA and MBTA indicate that the favored course is demand performance and impose contractual penalties, which CTA said at various times it did against Bombardier.

On the other hand, reviewing the ordinances indicates that the CT Board hasn't exercised any of the options.

I really hope the 7000s do not get cancelled. If they do get cancelled, we probably will have to have the 2600s until production of the 9000s starts, which probably will not be for several years. 
In my opinion, the 2600s must go ASAP. Considering the age of the cars, the extremely high mileage, and the fact that the last rehab was more than 20 years ago, the 2600s probably will not be mechanically sane sooner or later.

[Mr.NewFlyer1279]

3 hours ago, Jackson Blue Line said:

And you have yet to state where you got this information from.

employee at CRRC………..

[artthouwill]

10 hours ago, Jackson Blue Line said:

I really hope the 7000s do not get cancelled. If they do get cancelled, we probably will have to have the 2600s until production of the 9000s starts, which probably will not be for several years. 
In my opinion, the 2600s must go ASAP. Considering the age of the cars, the extremely high mileage, and the fact that the last rehab was more than 20 years ago, the 2600s probably will not be mechanically sane sooner or later.

The oldest 2600s are currently 42 years old and the youngest of the series are 36 years old.   The 2200 series ran for 44 years.  Unlike the 2200s,  the 2600s are bloated so that miles can be saved on the Blue Line and not rack up crazy mileage on the Orange and Brown Lines   The 2600s will stay around until CTA determines that the 7000s don't have any problems.   Remember CTA was starting to replace the 2400s on the Green Line with the 5000s when the 5000s all got pulled from service.  The 2400s were pressed back in service while an issue with the 5000s was resolved.  It took a few months before the 5000s were slowly reintroduced into service.   The 2400s stuck around for awhile running on the Purple,  Red,  and Orange Lines  until a large amount of 5000s were delivered. 

At this point,  expect to see the 2600s for at least until the end of 2024.