More Bus Moves

[Busjack]

I don't know what kind of seats are these (#6673).

Kevin is better at this than I, but it looks like a test for the Gemini seats that the 7900s are getting.

[Kevin]

Kevin is better at this than I, but it looks like a test for the Gemini seats that the 7900s are getting.

Correct manufacturer, but wrong model. That Nova was retrofitted in 2003, long before the Gemini model was introduced. Those are the CitiPro, which also appeared in the ill-fated CompoBus prototype.

[garmon757]

Kevin is better at this than I, but it looks like a test for the Gemini seats that the 7900s are getting.

Correct manufacturer, but wrong model. That Nova was retrofitted in 2003, long before the Gemini model was introduced. Those are the CitiPro, which also appeared in the ill-fated CompoBus prototype.

They were on the NABI 45C-LFW (7800) indeed. They are some nice seats. It's a good thing that they're vandal proofed. Honestly, they could've been a good fit for the artics and future busses but would they cost more?

[Busjack]

They were on the NABI 45C-LFW (7800) indeed. They are some nice seats. It's a good thing that they're vandal proofed. Honestly, they could've been a good fit for the artics and future busses but would they cost more?

One doesn't know, as they are sold to the bus manufacturers (and I am sure that the seat type has a minimal effect on the $488,000 bid per bus). As I noted, Kevin is better at this, and as Kevin noted, both sets come from the same company.

One thing not disclosed on either seat's brochure is whether either is the wider 18-1/2" seat CTA adopted as the standard with the Insight seats on the New Flyers, as opposed to the ones for the smaller butts.

[BusHunter]

They were on the NABI 45C-LFW (7800) indeed. They are some nice seats. It's a good thing that they're vandal proofed. Honestly, they could've been a good fit for the artics and future busses but would they cost more?

Wouldn't it be something if they were the same physical seats that were on #7800. I initially thought maybe not, I thought the seats were gray, but looking at our #7800 gallery they look alike. Would CTA have any property rights to the components in #7800? I know when the bus went to Hawaii (I believe Honolulu) it has different seats as to correspond with that transit agencies spec.

[Busjack]

Wouldn't it be something if they were the same physical seats that were on #7800. I initially thought maybe not, I thought the seats were gray, but looking at our #7800 gallery they look alike. Would CTA have any property rights to the components in #7800? I know when the bus went to Hawaii (I believe Honolulu) it has different seats as to correspond with that transit agencies spec.

I would doubt it, since CTA didn't pay for the bus. There might be some "intellectual property rights" in the fabric used for the inserts (i.e. I don't think Pace lets anyone else use fabric with its logo).

But in the ex-7800 thread, you said they were the same seats and inserts.

Also see the screen shots I captured here.

[ChicagoNova]

Well for today (Saturday), it appears that every artic garage is using their artics except North Park.

[jajuan]

Well for today (Saturday), it appears that every artic garage is using their artics except North Park.

With North Park, it's kind of become a pattern due to the combination of the weather and it being easier to hold back the number of artics used on weekends for them. On that note though, Kedzie is using less artics than usual. They are for the 12 anyway. It's running with a 50/50 split between artics and 40 foot buses.

[wordguy]

It looks as if there's been another 10-for-10 trade between 77th and FG:

1236-1245 FG to 77th

6829-6838 77th to FG

And once again, FG's remaining NFs were held in on a weekend day.

[MVTArider]

They were on the NABI 45C-LFW (7800) indeed. They are some nice seats. It's a good thing that they're vandal proofed. Honestly, they could've been a good fit for the artics and future busses but would they cost more?

Agreed, they are basically the beefed up version of the CitiSeat

which is used by many smaller agencies. Des Moines DART has the Citiseat on their Gillig LF units, and CitiPro on the Orion VII and VIING units. Overall they are some of the more comfortable insert style transit seats made IMHO.

While I understand wanting to support regional manufacturing by purchasing seats from Freedman, I think CTA would have also done well to buy the ASC Vision model seat. Metro Transit uses them on their artics now, and they seem to hold up very well while still being comfortable to sit in for a 30-50 minute express ride.

[jajuan]

It looks as if there's been another 10-for-10 trade between 77th and FG:

1236-1245 FG to 77th

6829-6838 77th to FG

And once again, FG's remaining NFs were held in on a weekend day.

What is with FG continually losing NFs? As got stated it already was pretty light on NFs to begin with. Yes it does have some of the older Novas too, but it's not like it's going to be first in line to get the newer 7900 series models. Although the 6700s and 6800s appear to have held up well compared to their lower numbered companions, and this despite most of them being stored outside most of their service lives.

[Busjack]

....

While I understand wanting to support regional manufacturing by purchasing seats from Freedman, I think CTA would have also done well to buy the ASC Vision model seat. Metro Transit uses them on their artics now, and they seem to hold up very well while still being comfortable to sit in for a 30-50 minute express ride.

Maybe the seating companies are going overboard with models that look the same. The only difference I see from the InSoght is the InSight description says "the largest personal sitting area in the industry," which is why CTA bought them for a while.

One thing that showed up the in Rapid Transit Car specs was that they wanted the inserts to be interchangeable, and while the seating arrangement will be different in the 7000s, both the 5000s and 7000s seem to use the same 1970s era seats with 1995 CTA era inserts. However, since CTA has moved from the InSights to the 4One (presumably Freedman) Aries and Gemini, apparently that isn't a concern on the bus side.

[Busjack]

What is with FG continually losing NFs? As got stated it already was pretty light on NFs to begin with. Yes it does have some of the older Novas too, but it's not like it's going to be first in line to get the newer 7900 series models. Although the 6700s and 6800s appear to have held up well compared to their lower numbered companions, and this despite most of them being stored outside most of their service lives.

Maybe 77th isn't getting as many 7900s as we thought. But apparently FG will have the last 6400s.

I would think it more suspicious if C or 74 were losing NFs.

[RJL6000]

It looks as if there's been another 10-for-10 trade between 77th and FG:

1236-1245 FG to 77th

6829-6838 77th to FG

And once again, FG's remaining NFs were held in on a weekend day.

Actually, that would be 6829-6839 (6832 was wrecked).

The next 10 FGs from FG to go in the coming weeks would be 1226-1235 (6840-6849 would head to FG in this instance). But then, among the 10 buses in the 1216-1225 range, 1218-1222 and 1224 (6 buses) are currently at FG while 1216, 1217, 1223 and 1225 are at Kedzie. If 77th were to receive that block (1216-1225) intact, buses 6850-6855 would then go to FG while buses 1344-1347 would go to K - and then, K would be sending 1277-1282 back to 77th in exchange for 1338-1343. Finally, the 1211-1215 group would take care of 1335-1337 (6856 and 6857 would then go to FG).

[BusHunter]

What is with FG continually losing NFs? As got stated it already was pretty light on NFs to begin with. Yes it does have some of the older Novas too, but it's not like it's going to be first in line to get the newer 7900 series models. Although the 6700s and 6800s appear to have held up well compared to their lower numbered companions, and this despite most of them being stored outside most of their service lives.

I don't get it either, but I figured the #6800's were going to FG, I just don't understand why the #6500's are not going to 77th. If they do order 450 Nova LFS smart buses, FG is going to become all new buses though. If they do get a 20 bus surplus for the #76 soon 77th won't have #6800's to trade. So what then, FG gets #6400's?

[wordguy]

Actually, that would be 6829-6839 (6832 was wrecked).

The next 10 FGs from FG to go in the coming weeks would be 1226-1235 (6840-6849 would head to FG in this instance). But then, among the 10 buses in the 1216-1225 range, 1218-1222 and 1224 (6 buses) are currently at FG while 1216, 1217, 1223 and 1225 are at Kedzie. If 77th were to receive that block (1216-1225) intact, buses 6850-6855 would then go to FG while buses 1344-1347 would go to K - and then, K would be sending 1277-1282 back to 77th in exchange for 1338-1343. Finally, the 1211-1215 group would take care of 1335-1337 (6856 and 6857 would then go to FG).

You're right, RJL. I forgot about 6832.

I'm wondering if the pattern will continue. I guess we'll know next weekend. Only the insiders would know for sure.

[sw4400]

Well, I believe the LFS Smart Buses will be going to 77th and FG in some extent, but my question is how??? With 77th getting more of the New Flyers from FG, does that mean that the Novas there will be moved about to other garages, allowing FG to get the first main batch of 7900's to stock their garage with an all-new fleet? The remainder of the 300 order will be placed at FG, and if/when the additional 150 are exercised, they might be split amongst FG and 77th, making these two garages an all LFS Smart Bus roster.

[BusHunter]

It does seem like what they are trying to do. (have all one bus type per garage again) If that's the case then it's going to be Fg and Whom? I can only think 74th. Well see if 74th starts losing NF's to 77th.

[ajm522]

Could his be temporary for rehab and south shops work or is this permeant? Whatever the reason, I am happy about the fact that 77th is finally gaining NF's and not losing them. For awhile the #3 and #4 were Nova dominated with NF's reserved for #8,79 and 87 and school runs. Current day it is now a mixture on the #3 and #4 with mainly NF's being used for morning and afternoon rush periods, it's a nice change.

[jajuan]

Well, I believe the LFS Smart Buses will be going to 77th and FG in some extent, but my question is how??? With 77th getting more of the New Flyers from FG, does that mean that the Novas there will be moved about to other garages, allowing FG to get the first main batch of 7900's to stock their garage with an all-new fleet? The remainder of the 300 order will be placed at FG, and if/when the additional 150 are exercised, they might be split amongst FG and 77th, making these two garages an all LFS Smart Bus roster.

It does seem like what they are trying to do. (have all one bus type per garage again) If that's the case then it's going to be Fg and Whom? I can only think 74th. Well see if 74th starts losing NF's to 77th.

One thing both of you are forgetting is that something has to start getting retired once the newer Novas start delivery. Current service levels will not support them trying to hold on to a high number of the older Novas when the deliveries of the 7900s really start cranking up. And given that 74th holds the mid-range of the older ones, namely the 6600s, it's highly doubtful that this one is going to just hold on to a significant number of 6400-series Novas if the extra 150 option on the 7900s is in fact exercised. As is they're already still holding on to close to a 100 bus surplus with only seven garages (five of which are designed for only a 250 bus capacity) to house those not on the street, presumably due to the rehab of the 1000s starting. If not for that, 100 Novas should already be off the roster with the South Red Line rehab being done for almost four months now.

[sw4400]

One thing both of you are forgetting is that something has to start getting retired once the newer Novas start delivery. Current service levels will not support them trying to hold on to a high number of the older Novas when the deliveries of the 7900s really start cranking up. And given that 74th holds the mid-range of the older ones, namely the 6600s, it's highly doubtful that this one is going to just hold on to a significant number of 6400-series Novas if the extra 150 option on the 7900s is in fact exercised. As is they're already still holding on to close to a 100 bus surplus with only seven garages (five of which are designed for only a 250 bus capacity) to house those not on the street, presumably due to the rehab of the 1000s starting. If not for that, 100 Novas should already be off the roster with the South Red Line rehab being done for almost four months now.

I'm basing my presumption off of the moves of New Flyers from FG to 77th, jajuan. I'm thinking CTA is planning to make FG an all Nova LFS Smart Bus garage and move the stock of Nova LFS at FG throughout other garages, retiring the older Nova LFS at those garages. Otherwise, why are the New Flyers being transferred from FG to 77th for Novas?

[BusHunter]

If you look at the current roster you can almost see what's going to happen, if/when Fg becomes all Nova. It seems that the deadline for transfers is the spring pick, so this should be over by then. This is what looks like is going to happen:

first FG loses #1236- #1226 for 77th's #6849-#6840

Then by a few more weeks FG loses all it's #1200's.

Kedzie needing to get rid of 20 buses to offset for Fg's #76 sends all of it's current #1200's to 77th and 77th sends it's remaining #6800's to FG.

Then FG sends the #1190's or the #1090's to 74th in exchange for #6876 - #6883.

FG ends up with all buses #6692 and higher.

The question is what happens to the last 10 FG NF's? (#1080's or #1190's or #1090's buses?) Fg gets #6691 and lower?

If that is what's going to happen, then FG will have to get some Nova smart buses or receive NF's back even if all CTA orders is 300 buses.

They still are going to have a problem at Chicago and 77th, unless like I say those #6400's go to 74th.

It really is mind boggling, the NW side is going to have the oldest trains averaging 30 years old and now the oldest buses averaging 11-12 years old. That's the only thing that's bad about consolidation.

[wordguy]

I'm basing my presumption off of the moves of New Flyers from FG to 77th, jajuan. I'm thinking CTA is planning to make FG an all Nova LFS Smart Bus garage and move the stock of Nova LFS at FG throughout other garages, retiring the older Nova LFS at those garages. Otherwise, why are the New Flyers being transferred from FG to 77th for Novas?

At this point (with the exception of anyone on this board who might have an inside track with the CTA), can we be sure that the 77th-FG shuffle will continue? Personally, I don't think that the one-bus-type-per-garage option is good planning. It ultimately leads to an unbalanced distribution of equipment by age and mileage as well as inflexibilty with shuffling equipment among garages as needed. Had Archer remained open, maintaining an entire fleet of 12-to-14-year-old Novas 24-7 might have presented some major headaches. In the meantime, FG didn't remain an all-Nova fleet, although that seemed to have been the original plan.

Also, the FG roster will be expanding this spring by about 20 buses. Maybe I'm wrong, but I can't imagine the additional buses being anything other than NFs (likely 10 each from Kedzie and Chicago, give or take). Now maybe --- just maybe--- tradition will be broken and FG will receive the first allotment of 7900s. (77th's most deteriorated 6400s would be temporarily replaced by returning 6500s from FG). Just a guess.

[BusHunter]

I don't think a bus delivery has ever started on the north side unless it was the #7000's or #7100's. 77th still has quite a few novas. It will be hard to get rid of all of them. Only 74th can supply them the Nf's they need unless they want to make Chicago a 50/50 garage I still say 77th may get a few new smart buses, but it won't be more than 100. 74th will probably get the most and Fg will be the last but then they are going to have to decide what they want to do. Give FG all new buses or give them some NF's back. In the end FG might have most of them, but they have to sign off on the last 150 first.

[Busjack]

As I indicated above, sending higher number buses back to FG indicates that they probably will get the 7900s last.

However, this seems less discriminatory than what appeared to the be original allotment of 1000s at 74th, which was either zero or 30. FG at least until 2007 had the lowest average age, and I bet by the time this round is over, it again will.