Red Line Extension (RLE)

[artthouwill]

48 minutes ago, MetroShadow said:

Bingo. Taking any of the buses to 95th is far too long (even with Pulse), even with the elimination of the 104 and no express route could replace what rail would be able to do (even if your final destination isn't downtown). 

If I can get folx off of 57 and 94 and get them on a train (even if they're living beyond 130th, Riverdale, Dolton, Cal City, etc), then the ROI is worth its weight in gold. The midwest has a problem with being car-centric; and the Far South has been neglected too often that it becomes symbolic of a lack of investment to the hood. We have to do better than that.

I wonder if the RLE includes a Park NRide.  Many south suburbanites drive to Hegewiscj, Kensington,  or ( at least once upon a time ( to the eastern part of the Jewel parking lot at 87th  and the Ryan.  A Park N Ride at 130th would be beneficial, assuming people wouldn't be afraid to park there.  

[Busjack]

10 hours ago, artthouwill said:

I wonder if the RLE includes a Park NRide.  Many south suburbanites drive to Hegewiscj, Kensington,  or ( at least once upon a time ( to the eastern part of the Jewel parking lot at 87th  and the Ryan.  A Park N Ride at 130th would be beneficial, assuming people wouldn't be afraid to park there.  

`There were various statements (including in Charging Forward) that there will be transit centers at the stations. I wonder, though, if south suburban drivers would use any such PNRs, as opposed, say, the ME and South Shore.

Mentioning 87th, there were floated, way back, plans for a garage to be built over the Dan Ryan at 87th, but nothing happened.

[Sam92]

12 minutes ago, Busjack said:

`There were various statements (including in Charging Forward) that there will be transit centers at the stations. I wonder, though, if south suburban drivers would use any such PNRs, as opposed, say, the ME and South Shore.

That would be contingent on ones final destination I'd imagine as well as the total cost between the PNR and fares. I can't find any details on metra rates to compare them to Cta PNR fares but im guessing the reduced fare on metra letting one go as far as Harvey for $3 means as long as you're going just downtown you don't really need to drive to the red line unless that extra change is that important. Someone who has to work further north then the red line becomes the better option since you'd have to transfer to Cta anyway and might as well do a free transfer vs a metra AND Cta fare. I know a couple of couriers using that to work downtown and go home on the burbs so there's definitely a draw for some suburban riders just going downtown

[BusHunter]

22 hours ago, NewFlyerMCI said:

 

Adding to (what I'm assuming his is point, unless I'm interpreting wrong), not everyone in that area needs to go downtown (or to Hyde Park), which would be the only purpose of the SSL. W/o fare integration, SSL (& Metra) is a waste of money since they'll still need to transfer, an issue that won't arise if they just take the Red Line.

Also, any transit center that tried to encourage transfers btwn SSL & Red Line is gonna fall short; the only people who'd use that is people who might work on the northside, and there's no benefit to transferring at 130th over Millennium Station

It could serve the south side locally to have a transfer stop. South side has the bigger piece if land to cover than the north side, but you know a great station doesnt have to have just one connection. Look what is there the expressway potential commuters from indiana and southern areas like crete or sauk trail. Look high gas prices, translation get them out of their cars and onto transit. In a way the concept is no different than the I-55 express corridor. You know one thing that was constructed that was really smart was the cumberland park n ride lot. Look at its location right where the tollway merges into the kennedy lots of potential revenue people can also park there to use the airport or a potential connection to I-90 express services. (But that is moreless at rosemont) plus it can feed off the north south tollway as well. Lots of opportunity. 

[NewFlyerMCI]

28 minutes ago, BusHunter said:

It could serve the south side locally to have a transfer stop. South side has the bigger piece if land to cover than the north side, but you know a great station doesnt have to have just one connection. Look what is there the expressway potential commuters from indiana and southern areas like crete or sauk trail. Look high gas prices, translation get them out of their cars and onto transit. In a way the concept is no different than the I-55 express corridor. You know one thing that was constructed that was really smart was the cumberland park n ride lot. Look at its location right where the tollway merges into the kennedy lots of potential revenue people can also park there to use the airport or a potential connection to I-90 express services. (But that is moreless at rosemont) plus it can feed off the north south tollway as well. Lots of opportunity. 

A stop dedicated for the express purpose of a transfer btwn SSL & Red Line is not going to be successful. It's one thing to have them on the same property, and sure, occasionally transfers might be made. I also had not thought of south side residents who might need to get to Indiana and vice versa (art made a great point that also explains why I prefer going out to Gurnee or Aurora for outlet shopping even though it'd be quicker to get to Michigan City if I didn't have to go up via Hyde Park). But any such station is going to be the same as Oak Park, Evanston-Davis & Jeff Pk: just a place where both heavy rail and commuter rail just so happen to stop. There are not large groups of Metra commuters getting off at these stops and getting on CTA, or vice versa (ofc, people who's trips start at that station, or might be taking the bus, that's a different story).

Making sure the station is a transit center is a different matter, and while I'd rather see more mixed-use eTOD instead of parking garages, this is a location and point in time where the latter will be more well-received (and maybe even more necessary) than the former.

[NewFlyerMCI]

1 hour ago, Sam92 said:

That would be contingent on ones final destination I'd imagine as well as the total cost between the PNR and fares. I can't find any details on metra rates to compare them to Cta PNR fares but im guessing the reduced fare on metra letting one go as far as Harvey for $3 means as long as you're going just downtown you don't really need to drive to the red line unless that extra change is that important. Someone who has to work further north then the red line becomes the better option since you'd have to transfer to Cta anyway and might as well do a free transfer vs a metra AND Cta fare. I know a couple of couriers using that to work downtown and go home on the burbs so there's definitely a draw for some suburban riders just going downtown

Another reason why Metra needs to fully join Ventra and RTA needs to present more fare options other than just a Link-Up pass, including free transfers to CTA/Pace and non-time restricted options, it's not hard. FTSC was a commendable idea, but still ignored a core contingent of riders; people who's final destinations aren't downtown (or IIT/Hyde Park)

AFAIK, Metra doesn't charge for parking, do they? At a quick glance, CTA has decent rates for their parking, but I also don't drive, so that may be ignorance on my part

[Tcmetro]

I don't think a South Shore transfer is necessarily needed, but given the SSL double track project and the West Lake line projects, it's worthy of investigation.

Between the north side and south sides of 130th for a station, the south side makes a lot more sense. A north station is adjacent to a water treatment plant and would probably require a pedestrian underpass to Altgeld Gardens anyways.

[NewFlyerMCI]

12 hours ago, artthouwill said:

I wonder if the RLE includes a Park NRide.  Many south suburbanites drive to Hegewiscj, Kensington,  or ( at least once upon a time ( to the eastern part of the Jewel parking lot at 87th  and the Ryan.  A Park N Ride at 130th would be beneficial, assuming people wouldn't be afraid to park there.  

I made a fictional map of what a subway system for Milwaukee would look like, which a local reporter posted on the local news station's facebook, and one of the first comments was something along the lines of "are we expected to park our cars at these train stations and leave them there???" which is just such a hilarious sentiment to me, b/c ofc i've heard of the occasional theft from parking lot (not just at a transit one) but is this really such a perceived issue that people would be afraid to park there? People park their cars at Garfield Green & West 63rd. In DC, Anacostia has a huge parking garage. West Baltimore MARC station has four parking lots spread out over 3-4 blocks literally in the middle of WB, and no one has any issue. It's really funny to me.

[NewFlyerMCI]

4 minutes ago, Tcmetro said:

I don't think a South Shore transfer is necessarily needed, but given the SSL double track project and the West Lake line projects, it's worthy of investigation.

Between the north side and south sides of 130th for a station, the south side makes a lot more sense. A north station is adjacent to a water treatment plant and would probably require a pedestrian underpass to Altgeld Gardens anyways.

Certainly. I just don't think it needs to be a priority (the transfer aspect). A situation similar to Prairie Crossing would be ideal actually

[artthouwill]

3 minutes ago, NewFlyerMCI said:

I made a fictional map of what a subway system for Milwaukee would look like, which a local reporter posted on the local news station's facebook, and one of the first comments was something along the lines of "are we expected to park our cars at these train stations and leave them there???" which is just such a hilarious sentiment to me, b/c ofc i've heard of the occasional theft from parking lot (not just at a transit one) but is this really such a perceived issue that people would be afraid to park there? People park their cars at Garfield Green & West 63rd. In DC, Anacostia has a huge parking garage. West Baltimore MARC station has four parking lots spread out over 3-4 blocks literally in the middle of WB, and no one has any issue. It's really funny to me.

Park N Ride concept isn't new in the Milwaukee area, it's just not a public transit concept.  Wisconsin Ciach Lunes gas ( had?) Commuter buses from Waukesha and other places that commuters could park their cars and ride into downtown Milwaukee.  I guess the general sentiment is that it's unsafe to park in the city..

U grew up bear the 52rd and Ashland station and from my youth to now, I have never seen that lit full or even half full. 

By contrast,  when I lived in Hammond,  the commuter lot at the East Chicago station had to be expanded because it would fill up so fast people parked in Michigan Ave (*U S.20). Cumberland and Forest Park seem to do well    u don't know about now, but even Gary Metro used to do well, but I guess people there wouldn't be keen on driving to Chicago,  downtown or elsewhere. 

[Sam92]

1 hour ago, NewFlyerMCI said:

Another reason why Metra needs to fully join Ventra and RTA needs to present more fare options other than just a Link-Up pass, including free transfers to CTA/Pace and non-time restricted options, it's not hard. FTSC was a commendable idea, but still ignored a core contingent of riders; people who's final destinations aren't downtown (or IIT/Hyde Park)

AFAIK, Metra doesn't charge for parking, do they? At a quick glance, CTA has decent rates for their parking, but I also don't drive, so that may be ignorance on my part

FTSC? 

[NewFlyerMCI]

1 minute ago, Sam92 said:

FTSC? 

Fair Transit South Cook

[Busjack]

1 hour ago, Tcmetro said:

I don't think a South Shore transfer is necessarily needed, but given the SSL double track project and the West Lake line projects, it's worthy of investigation.

 

Speaking of which, while RLE and the 2 NICTD projects were proposed at the same time, the 2 NICTD projects are now under construction, while CTA and Illinois are still messing around.

[BusHunter]

How does a commuter from indiana go to sox park?

[Busjack]

9 minutes ago, BusHunter said:

How does a commuter from indiana go to sox park?

Charter bus, drive (plenty of parking).

[BusHunter]

2 hours ago, Busjack said:

Charter bus, drive (plenty of parking).

They get lots of that ive been there myself with a bus. Not everyone has that benefit  what about them?

[NewFlyerMCI]

12 minutes ago, BusHunter said:

They get lots of that ive been there myself with a bus. Not everyone has that benefit  what about them?

While more stadiums need to emphasize the use of public transit, those potential riders can't solely be catered to. There's about 5 different other projects in the region that need more focus than figuring out a way to get NW Indiana residents to U.S. Cellular. 

Interim solution is shuttle buses from 11th, 18th or 27th

[artthouwill]

5 hours ago, BusHunter said:

They get lots of that ive been there myself with a bus. Not everyone has that benefit  what about them?

If driving and charter buses aren't options, then take the SS downtown, the the Red Line to 35th or Addison,  or the Blue Line to Illinois Medical District or the 19 to the UC.   Just have to be cognizant about the last train leaving downtown.  No different than suburban residents taking Metra.

[Busjack]

3 hours ago, BusHunter said:

They get lots of that ive been there myself with a bus. Not everyone has that benefit  what about them?

Subscribe to NBC Sports Chicago. Go see the Gary Railcats.

[Sam92]

3 hours ago, artthouwill said:

If driving and charter buses aren't options, then take the SS downtown, the the Rwd Line to 35th or Addison,  or the Blye Line to Illinois Medical District or the 19 to the UC.   Just have to be cognizant about the last train leaving downtown.  No different than suburban residents taking Metra.

Also add to that those are seasonal generators so they might not get the attention that a more full time generator like offices or recreational areas might. I will add however that regional connectivity could help transit survive and hopefully have a leg to stand on against Uber and Lyft.

[Busjack]

11 hours ago, Sam92 said:

Also add to that those are seasonal generators so they might not get the attention that a more full time generator like offices or recreational areas might. I will add however that regional connectivity could help transit survive and hopefully have a leg to stand on against Uber and Lyft.

Exactly. Pace doesn't run regular routes to events, even for events in its territory, such as at Allstate Arena, and those are always the first cut in any crisis.

Even if someone took the convoluted path Art suggested to  get to the late train, there isn't going to be a bus to greet them in Indiana. GPTC only operates until 9:30 p.m.

I think @BusHunter was only throwing out a red herring.

[artthouwill]

On 2/18/2022 at 7:03 PM, BusHunter said:

Supposed to be at 120th, the yard. How are they going to incorporate a transit center at altgeld gardens? They have space to do that? Plus would anyone feel safe riding a train to a low income housing area? 

There is a lot of gentrification going on south of 111th up to and including Altgeld Gardens.  It's very possible and likely that Altgeld Gardens and the surrounding communities will be different six years from now.

[BusHunter]

2 hours ago, artthouwill said:

There is a lot of gentrification going on south of 111th up to and including Altgeld Gardens.  It's very possible and likely that Altgeld Gardens and the surrounding communities will be different six years from now.

Well there should be new construction that would be spurred by the station. The trouble is in that area, the only thing that is really there is altgeld gardens. Too bad the line didnt follow the south shore into hegewisch that would be a more populated area and possibly be a source of revenue, cause the Ford plant is right there on Torrence.

[artthouwill]

25 minutes ago, BusHunter said:

Well there should be new construction that would be spurred by the station. The trouble is in that area, the only thing that is really there is altgeld gardens. Too bad the line didnt follow the south shore into hegewisch that would be a more populated area and possibly be a source of revenue, cause the Ford plant is right there on Torrence.

Mist Ford plant workers don't use public transportation especially when they get empliyee discounts.

The city isn't telling anyone, but they plan to change the Altgeld gardens area from projects into market rate housing.  Programs are in place to educate current residents to either purchase or make preparations to move.

Hegewisch residents will continue to use the faster SSL to travel down. 

South Michigan Ave is undergoing redevelopment between 111th and 119th. With emphasis between 111th and the proposed Michigan Ave Red Line station. 

Pullman redevelopment is in high gear as well so eventually the demographics are going to change 

[Sam92]

13 hours ago, artthouwill said:

Mist Ford plant workers don't use public transportation especially when they get empliyee discounts.

The city isn't telling anyone, but they plan to change the Altgeld gardens area from projects into market rate housing.  Programs are in place to educate current residents to either purchase or make preparations to move.

Hegewisch residents will continue to use the faster SSL to travel down. 

South Michigan Ave is undergoing redevelopment between 111th and 119th. With emphasis between 111th and the proposed Michigan Ave Red Line station. 

Pullman redevelopment is in high gear as well so eventually the demographics are going to change 

So in other words they just happen to be gentrifying soon as the red line gets extended ?