Red-Purple Bypass Project

[Busjack]

....I don't know if there are practical reroutings available, like north side Red Line trains running current Brown to the Loop only and Brown line branch trains thru routed to 95th via the subway. Between Belmont and Fullerton, there are enough crossovers to have trains stop at either side of the platform at those two stations. ....

The issue is that in any event a northbound Brown Line train has to make a left turn across traffic (at least the two southbound tracks). The only way I can see resolving that is if the Brown Line had the two westerly tracks and the Red and Purple Lines the two easterly ones. But then you would have to rebuild all the local stations that are hanging off the side of the structure (so that the NB Brown Line could serve Diversey and Wellington) and undoubtedly also rework tracks going into the subway portal.

[artthouwill]

The issue is that in any event a northbound Brown Line train has to make a left turn across traffic (at least the two southbound tracks). The only way I can see resolving that is if the Brown Line had the two westerly tracks and the Red and Purple Lines the two easterly ones. But then you would have to rebuild all the local stations that are hanging off the side of the structure (so that the NB Brown Line could serve Diversey and Wellington) and undoubtedly also rework tracks going into the subway portal.

First, I don't think the cost justifies the flyover. Second, I'm not trying to eliminate the crossover as much as reducing the amount of trains that actually have to crossover.during peak hours. It seems ato be a nonissue during offpeak hours.

[Busjack]

First, I don't think the cost justifies the flyover. Second, I'm not trying to eliminate the crossover as much as reducing the amount of trains that actually have to crossover.during peak hours. It seems ato be a nonissue during offpeak hours.

If you think that the Loop can handle the number of trains from the north side when (despite being less crowded than it was in the 70s), and again want to incur the yelling from south siders that they lost their connection to the north side (which did occur when the south side main was made the Green Line, even though they had the Red Line), good luck with that. I also doubt that Red Line passengers want any of the stations on the L south of Fullerton substituted for Clark & Division and Chicago & State, the latter of which are at least within walking distances of popular attractions (Rush St. and Michigan Ave.).

Probably all you have done is move the congestion from Clark Jct. to Tower 18.

[Busjack]

Tribune has a list of affected properties. Aside from residences on Wilton, apparently a bunch of Wrigleyville businesses on Clark (3300-3400 blocks) would also be affected.

Update: Based on the Google Map in the Tribune, I don't see why the properties on the east side of Clark between Roscoe and Newport need to be taken, unless CTA also intends to do something with the southbound track not obvious from building the flyover as previously described. The main track does jog near Newport.

[BusHunter]

Unless they want to relocate the substation? But I thought they were rebuilding that, that would mean they would have to rebuild that again!! Some of those properties are way up by Newport and starting to get close to Wrigley. You would think those properties are more harder to get, (I hear one of them is valued at $995 K) but the Ricketts sure don't think so they will be tearing up the Mcdonald's and putting a hotel there soon.

[Busjack]

Unless they want to relocate the substation? But I thought they were rebuilding that, that would mean they would have to rebuild that again!! ....

That one was supposedly rebuilt as part of the last Brown Line project. The two (of 3) under construction now are further south (Hill, near old Cabrini Green, and Armitage). I assume that whatever would be done would clear the roof of the substation, which is below the level of the current track.

...but the Ricketts sure don't think so they will be tearing up the Mcdonald's and putting a hotel there soon.

The McDonalds was acquired a couple of years ago, and the hotel is supposed to be at Patterson Ave, which would be at about 3620 N., as opposed to the pinpoints on the map being on the 3400 block.

[BusHunter]

What could be potentially interesting is after the construction is over and they have all these empty lots, they could build a parking garage for Wrigley or just for the neighborhood itself. Parking down there is horrendous. If done correctly they could build street level businesses below the garage and potentially reattract some of the lost business owners back into a new structure.

[Busjack]

What could be potentially interesting is after the construction is over and they have all these empty lots, they could build a parking garage for Wrigley or just for the neighborhood itself. Parking down there is horrendous. If done correctly they could build street level businesses below the garage and potentially reattract some of the lost business owners back into a new structure.

Tammy Chase was quoted as saying that for the people across the street on Wilton, anything built on the west side of Wilton would be transit oriented development that wouldn't depreciate those owners' property (sure), and in any case by a developer to whom CTA would sell the land when done with the project. If there were going to be any parking on the 3400 block, obviously CTA would have to sell what remains after construction to somebody.

[jajuan]

While I don't agree with Art's approach, which seems to substitute one disruption pushed further south in place of this one, I agree with his point that this solution seems like overkill for an issue that CTA and the newspapers seem to be overblowing. I've traveled through that junction enough times even in peak hours to know that a lot of times delays through there are minor. The longest I've ever seen a train get held up at that junction is 30 to 45 seconds in the off peak and maybe a minute in rush hour which in both cases is rare. And yeah I've ridden all three lines through there. Every time I read any of the newspapers talking about a bottleneck, I keep asking myself "what bottleneck?" This sounds like another extravagant pipe dream CTA has come up with to satisfy people who need to learn to leave earlier if a 30 second to one minute wait for signal clearances in extreme cases is enough to be considered a bottleneck. I really don't see the need to tear up half the neighborhood for this. And that's if by some slim chance the feds give them money to pay for this because they sure didn't identify source of money to pay for any of this, unless I missed something. From what I understand, all they're doing so far is disrupting and stressing out the local businesses and residents with an eviction that may not come because they have no money lined up to even start this project.

[sw4400]

I don't see the purpose of the flyover if all it does it shaves off three minutes of time. People can't wait three minutes nowadays? If it was like 7-10 minutes or more, I'd say it's worth the displacement and taxpayer money, but it's not.

[Busjack]

On the above two, I can see your point, but apparently Kevin O'Neil couldn't figure out my point that if they have a plan for increasing service on the north side, they should state it, including where they would get the operating money to run it. That was one of Carole Brown's arguments for "funding" in 2005. Hence, this much disruption isn't worth it unless they have such a plan.

A couple of weeks ago, I and others said we couldn't figure out why they didn't do this as part of the Brown Line project in 2007-2009; I guess now we know.

[See Tea Eh]

I don't see the purpose of the flyover if all it does it shaves off three minutes of time. People can't wait three minutes nowadays? If it was like 7-10 minutes or more, I'd say it's worth the displacement and taxpayer money, but it's not.

Saving three minutes on a route with three-minute peak head ways means you're saving one train and the associated crew costs, even if you don't add service.

[Busjack]

Maybe related, a story that NY is much more successful than Chicago at getting federal funds for a tunnel to nowhere. Sort of sounds like Carole Brown's take on "why we went ahead with Block 37."

[BusHunter]

Tribune has a list of affected properties. Aside from residences on Wilton, apparently a bunch of Wrigleyville businesses on Clark (3300-3400 blocks) would also be affected.

Update: Based on the Google Map in the Tribune, I don't see why the properties on the east side of Clark between Roscoe and Newport need to be taken, unless CTA also intends to do something with the southbound track not obvious from building the flyover as previously described. The main track does jog near Newport.

Someone was saying that they may also straighten the red line tracks north of Clark Junction. That may be possible if they do get rid of the building on Newport and Clark SW corner.

[strictures]

Someone was saying that they may also straighten the red line tracks north of Clark Junction. That may be possible if they do get rid of the building on Newport and Clark SW corner.

Maybe that's where a big chunk of the $320 million is going. To straighten out the tracks north of Clark Junction, they'll have to get rid of the Vautravers Building, which is why that kink is there.

[BusHunter]

I also heard they can't do interlockings on a concrete supported structure. Maybe there is no support in the center. That so far is the thinking, is to do concrete structure and use a metal structure where the interlockings are. There was a CTA engineer talking about it on the anniversary trip on Saturday. The RPM will just be pulled out over the alleys at the stations and go back to it's normal position between them. This just leaves them acquiring property at the stations. All this is preliminary of course.

I was trying to think where is there an interlocking that's concrete and federal junction comes to mind. I wonder if there is a special support there?

[Busjack]

I also heard they can't do interlockings on a concrete supported structure....

I was trying to think where is there an interlocking that's concrete and federal junction comes to mind. I wonder if there is a special support there?

That would assume that there aren't interlockings on the Pink Line (other than between Polk and 21st, or west of Kostner). Even if you assume a concrete structure, the tracks are on steel beams.

[BusHunter]

That would assume that there aren't interlockings on the Pink Line (other than between Polk and 21st, or west of Kostner). Even if you assume a concrete structure, the tracks are on steel beams.

Yeah but are they on transverse steel beams? If the concrete columns hold together a span of metal like a bridge then how do you support something in the center (between two spans) as heavy as a multi ton train? With all metal they can set up braces and transverse beams that carry the support to the main structure, but how do you do that with concrete? Unless you just build a bigger heavier support or an additional one.

[strictures]

I also heard they can't do interlockings on a concrete supported structure. Maybe there is no support in the center. That so far is the thinking, is to do concrete structure and use a metal structure where the interlockings are. There was a CTA engineer talking about it on the anniversary trip on Saturday. The RPM will just be pulled out over the alleys at the stations and go back to it's normal position between them. This just leaves them acquiring property at the stations. All this is preliminary of course.

I was trying to think where is there an interlocking that's concrete and federal junction comes to mind. I wonder if there is a special support there?

I looked on Google satellite view at Miami Metro. Most of their system is on concrete supports, but the interlocking I looked at is on an embankment.

So that might be true.

I have read that doing rapid transit with a single pillar holding up trains running in opposite directions causes engineering problems. But I don't remember the specifics, that's from 30 years ago.

[Busjack]

....I have read that doing rapid transit with a single pillar holding up trains running in opposite directions causes engineering problems. But I don't remember the specifics, that's from 3o years ago.

That seems what CTA consultants propose for all the nonexistent extensions, but not what has been built so far (such as, as I mentioned, the Pink Line). I'm also not sure what its relevance is to the RPM.

[BusHunter]

It seemed like the guy was interested in the Addison to Clark jun. Segment. He was talking about the interlockings there. Do you think they could possibly make an clark to addison segment part of the flyover project? Usually road crews will pave a 100 feet of cross intersections when they pave a road so it's possible. I took some pictures/video of federal junction from the street level. I was interested in the engineering/steel work rhere. I'll upload those pictures later tonight. Surprisingly they use all straight beams with the junction all one piece. Kind of interesting

Btw., I took a look at the addison kink and if you remove the three properties me and busjack were discussing between clark and north of newport on the east side that does straight en out the kink. So that must be it.

[sw4400]

Thanks to this reporter who decided to do his homework on the Clark Jct. Bottleneck, we get to see firsthand how long trains really have to wait to get through. He tracked 30 trains through the Jct.(some NB, some SB) and these were his results...

A Southbound Purple Line train had the longest wait time at the Jct. that had to wait approx. 40 seconds to proceed. Really, just 40 seconds? Boy, that's a long time!

A typical delay was 25-30 seconds per train...

A Kimball-bound Brown Line train had to wait 20 seconds for a Red Line train, which must be an eternity...

Time from Belmont to Montrose, including the 20 second delay was seven minutes.... seven minutes is pretty darn good!

So, is it really worth razing 16 buildings and displacing residents and business owners? So you want to spend $320 million on a Brown Line Flyover(who knows how much of this is taxpayer money) to save how much more time? 5 to 10 seconds? And Brown and Purple Line trains will still be delayed a bit as they share the same tracks on the North Side Main Line from Belmont pretty much through the Loop. This plan makes no sense whatsoever... the time of delay doesn't give enough reason for the cost and deconstruction of this project.

Story

[Busjack]

....

Story

Not sure if you or the author was being more sarcastic. Now, if they can only get this into the real media......

[sw4400]

Not sure if you or the author was being more sarcastic. Now, if they can only get this into the real media......

Could be a little of both(don't know if I was more sarcastic or not), but unless the wait is several minutes, I don't see the reason for this flyover. How about a reroute for Loop Elevated trains who have to wait 5-10 minutes or longer everytime the Wells St. Bridge is raised to allow boats to pass? Think of all the passengers waiting to get to work or appointments because of that!

[Busjack]

Could be a little of both(don't know if I was more sarcastic or not), but unless the wait is several minutes, I don't see the reason for this flyover. How about a reroute for Loop Elevated trains who have to wait 5-10 minutes or longer everytime the Wells St. Bridge is raised to allow boats to pass? Think of all the passengers waiting to get to work or appointments because of that!

I was focusing more on your "Really, just 40 seconds? Boy, that's a long time!" and the Reader's:

In fact, let me pause for a moment to offer a compliment to Mayor Emanuel and Forrest Claypool, his handpicked CTA president. In case any of you thinks I never say a kind word about the mayor, here goes: I believe the mayor and Claypool have done a pretty decent job running the CTA.

All right, they shouldn't have killed the number 11 bus, which ran up Lincoln Avenue. And yes, that Ashland Avenue bus rapid-transit plan looks like it will cause more problems than it solves. Plus, we all know that the Ventra card rollout has hardly been smooth sailing. And then . . .

But to take your further point forward, I don't recall a plan to demolish the buildings on 3 corners of Wells and Lake, where the real bottleneck is. Maybe Carrie Fisher can blow up a couple of buildings on Van Buren, again.*

_________

*Reference to Elwood Blues's flop house.