5000-series - Updates

[Mr.cta85]

Heres another question for you guys do you think the blue line will be the only line to get the 5000 series??? and how do you think they will divide the rest of the fleet meaning where will the 2600's and 3200's go after the retirement of the 2200's and 2400's.

[Busjack]

Heres another question for you guys do you think the blue line will be the only line to get the 5000 series??? and how do you think they will divide the rest of the fleet meaning where will the 2600's and 3200's go after the retirement of the 2200's and 2400's.

You have to better quantify your question, since, again, as the bus deliveries indicated, it is one thing if you are talking about the base order, and another if you are assuming that all the options will be exercised. We don't know what CTA brass is thinking. Bus Hunter and I discussed that the last 84 of the option ones were supposed to be for the airport express, my source being a consultant's report on the airport express that was posted shortly before Carole Brown said on her blog that she wasn't interested in implementing what was suggested in that report in that form.

So far, CTA has exercised the base order and Option 1, for 406 cars. It would take about 340 to replace all the 2200s and 2400s. The current allocation to the Blue (considering that the Pink no longer uses the same cars) is about 300. Hence, that calculus indicates that there would be, at the end of Option 1, 100 or so cars that could be used for something else. One might have thought that some of that excess could be used for the Brown Line expansion, but whether it was because the order was delayed for 2 years because CTA brass at the time specified DC traction motors, and they had a consultant work on it for another two years to develop specification for AC ones on which the carbuilders would bid, or the intent behind the Brown Line project was to increase train length and decrease frequency, one doesn't know if that was or will be the plan.

Also, one doesn't know whether any of the proposed New Starts would come within this time frame. For instance, the report on the Red Line extension indicates a need for an additional 78 cars

In any event, since the 5000s don't train with prior series, they probably won't be scattered around the system, and since the Purple Line basically runs part time, I would rule it out. Various low frequency lines like the Green and Purple probably will get 2600s to replace their 2400s.

[BusHunter]

If the cars end up on the blue line first, they will have #2200's that can't run alone (because they are inaccessible), #2600's that can't be paired with #5000's, and #5000's which can only run alone.

[Busjack]

If the cars end up on the blue line first, they will have #2200's that can't run alone (because they are inaccessible), #2600's that can't be paired with #5000's, and #5000's which can only run alone.

There is always going to be some interim situation.

However, the 2200s will be dropping fast, once the production order deliveries begin.

So long as the 5000s are early in the delivery cycle, there will be some line with 5000 trains and earlier generation trains. No different than the ME having 26 cars that can't train with the other approx. 140.

[Mr.cta85]

There is always going to be some interim situation.

However, the 2200s will be dropping fast, once the production order deliveries begin.

So long as the 5000s are early in the delivery cycle, there will be some line with 5000 trains and earlier generation trains. No different than the ME having 26 cars that can't train with the other approx. 140.

What I would like to know is why would they design the 5000 series to not be able to train with the existing cars in my opinion that should have been one of the main things about the new cars is that they are able to train with the existing cars.

[Busjack]

What I would like to know is why would they design the 5000 series to not be able to train with the existing cars in my opinion that should have been one of the main things about the new cars is that they are able to train with the existing cars.

Apparently, because to train with them, the motors would have to be DC, but that's obsolete.

After all, I mentioned that the order was delayed 2 years because the brains at CTA originally had specifications for DC cars, and it was reported that the carbuilders would not bid on them, and hence the 5000s (like the South Shore and the ME 1200s) are AC.

Also there were previously series of cars that didn't intertrain; the 4000s didn't connect with the 6000s, and the 6000s didn't train with the 2000s. Total backward capability would mean that CTA would still have to use 1924 technology. Hence, saying they have to train is sort of is like saying you have to keep your 1964 Plymouth, even though you can't get parts for it.

[jajuan]

Spotted a 5000s test train on eastbound Forest Park Branch of the Blue Line early Tuesday afternoon. Didn't get a chance to see the car numbers since the westbound train I was on was in motion at top speed at the time. Just had time enough to see the boring LED destination sign showing "O'Hare" when passing it. I still agree with everyone else that color changing signs should be used to distinguish the different lines that these cars may be assigned once in revenue service.

[ibebobo]

Are these "test trains" carrying passengers?

[jacksone44]

Are these "test trains" carrying passengers?

Highly doubt it.

[ibebobo]

Highly doubt it.

I'm surprised to hear that they would have a final destination showing, rather than "not in service."

[jacksone44]

I'm surprised to hear that they would have a final destination showing, rather than "not in service."

My guess (A very educated one) would be to make sure the signs work on the right line when programmed, which was probably when you saw it "test displaying" O'Hare. When I saw them on the Red Line last week they were displaying not in service.

[Kevin]

I'm surprised to hear that they would have a final destination showing, rather than "not in service."

If the setup is anything like on buses, the signs probably need to be set in order to perform full testing of the GPS system. Unlike the current rolling stock, next-stop announcements on the 5000s will be fully automated. There have been some bugs thus far with the cars not announcing stops or announcing stops at the wrong times.

[Busjack]

If the setup is anything like on buses, the signs probably need to be set in order to perform full testing of the GPS system. Unlike the current rolling stock, next-stop announcements on the 5000s will be fully automated. There have been some bugs thus far with the cars not announcing stops or announcing stops at the wrong times.

Since they will partially be in the subway, I suppose some sort of dead reckoning would be needed.

[BusHunter]

If the setup is anything like on buses, the signs probably need to be set in order to perform full testing of the GPS system. Unlike the current rolling stock, next-stop announcements on the 5000s will be fully automated. There have been some bugs thus far with the cars not announcing stops or announcing stops at the wrong times.

I can imagine. It's going to be a challenge to keep this in working order from what I've seen of the buses. Some display or say a stop a block after the stop some don't say it at all if you have a defect. Hopefully an operator can override the system and announce stops verbally because there will be times when that is needed.

[ibebobo]

I can imagine. It's going to be a challenge to keep this in working order from what I've seen of the buses. Some display or say a stop a block after the stop some don't say it at all if you have a defect. Hopefully an operator can override the system and announce stops verbally because there will be times when that is needed.

There's got to be more to the system than GPS as Busjack points out that they are in the subway where GPS can't work. Also, unlike the buses, they can only stop at one place. The system in NYC works and it is underground more than any of our lines. Maybe since there was so much thought into bringing cell service to the subways, it is somehow connected to that????

[BusHunter]

There's got to be more to the system than GPS as Busjack points out that they are in the subway where GPS can't work. Also, unlike the buses, they can only stop at one place. The system in NYC works and it is underground more than any of our lines. Maybe since there was so much thought into bringing cell service to the subways, it is somehow connected to that????

I wonder if this has any link with the absence of next train information missing on the Titan signs so far. It would be nice to have the signs do what said they would do.

[Kevin]

There's got to be more to the system than GPS as Busjack points out that they are in the subway where GPS can't work. Also, unlike the buses, they can only stop at one place. The system in NYC works and it is underground more than any of our lines. Maybe since there was so much thought into bringing cell service to the subways, it is somehow connected to that????

There's probably an odometer that can be used either primarily or as a fall back when GPS is unavailable.

[Busjack]

I wonder if this has any link with the absence of next train information missing on the Titan signs so far.

One would think that the signal system knows when the next train is coming. It was able to tell whatever the automated announcement is that "a train is approaching from downtown." The Titan signs shouldn't be too much more complicated, except for determining that if a train passes the signal block at Cumberland, it will be two minutes before it gets to Rosemont, unless the signals tell it to stop on the way.

Giving the GPS equivalent to the train is more complicated, and Kevin mentioning an odometer is about equivalent to me saying dead reckoning. Supposedly there are also systems where a device on the wayside "tells the train" that it is approaching a certain station (to which I think ibebobo is referring), but no indication that something like that has been installed on the CTA.

[Amtrak41]

Apparently, because to train with them, the motors would have to be DC, but that's obsolete.

On NJT in the 1990's, the rebuilt Arrow-III MU's (with AC traction) did MU with non-rebuilt Arrow-II's (now all scrapped). Also, Amtrak may well MU an AEM-7 AC and a DC (half have gotten rebuilt).

With the 5000's, I think it has more to do with the variable controller, and horrendous bucking and jerking that would result.

[jacksone44]

On NJT in the 1990's, the rebuilt Arrow-III MU's (with AC traction) did MU with non-rebuilt Arrow-II's (now all scrapped). Also, Amtrak may well MU an AEM-7 AC and a DC (half have gotten rebuilt).

With the 5000's, I think it has more to do with the variable controller, and horrendous bucking and jerking that would result.

All you need are inverters to train AC's and DC's together. St. Louis currently does this with older and newer Siemens LRC's.

[Scionic]

All you need are inverters to train AC's and DC's together. St. Louis currently does this with older and newer Siemens LRC's.

It's my understanding that this would be pretty difficult, since the AC trains have virtually unlimited power settings, and the older DC trains have like 3 or 4. It's like a volume knob versus a lightswitch. I'm sure it's possible to train them all together with some extra equipment, but it would seem to negate many the advantages of having an AC train in the first place.

[Busjack]

It's my understanding that this would be pretty difficult, since the AC trains have virtually unlimited power settings, and the older DC trains have like 3 or 4. It's like a volume knob versus a lightswitch. I'm sure it's possible to train them all together with some extra equipment, but it would seem to negate many the advantages of having an AC train in the first place.

The other thing to consider is that the CTA's DC cars have mechanical cam controllers under the cars, as it was reported in Krambles's book that the chopper (electronic) control tests on the 2400s failed because of interference with the cab signal system. One of the reasons why the signal systems are now being upgraded is to avoid that issue with the obviously electronically controlled AC cars.

I originally thought that training could be possible, as in any MU system since 1897, the cab controller only sends signals to the controllers under each car, but apparently there are too many complications to make it practical in CTA's and Metra's situations.

[sw4400]

 

5000's Assignment List: 12/7/15 Red, Blue, Brown, Green, Orange, Purple, Pink, Yellow, Not In Service, To Be Delivered

 

Notes:

-Cars 5001-5002, 5013-5086 5089-5094 and 5103-5114 began receiving their color LED signs late 8/12. Previously, they had amber LED signs.' All previously delivered 5000-Series railcars now have color LED signs.

-5269-5270 were the first 5000-Series railcars to debut a new light blue interior scheme as opposed to the tan ones on cars 5001-5268. All future railcars in this series will have the light blue interior scheme.

-5369-5370 were the first 5000-Series railcars to debut a new bluish LED lighting on the interior of the railcars. Future railcars in this series will have the bluish LED lighting. Older cars in the series already delivered will have LED lighting retrofitted into them.

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5713-5714 (Bombardier 2015)

[rmadisonwi]

This thread's a joke, right?

I mean, retirement dates? Come on!

[jesi2282]

This thread's a joke, right?

I mean, retirement dates? Come on!

That's the same thing I said to myself.