Jump to content
greenstreet

5000-series - Updates

Recommended Posts

Heres another question for you guys do you think the blue line will be the only line to get the 5000 series??? and how do you think they will divide the rest of the fleet meaning where will the 2600's and 3200's go after the retirement of the 2200's and 2400's.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Heres another question for you guys do you think the blue line will be the only line to get the 5000 series??? and how do you think they will divide the rest of the fleet meaning where will the 2600's and 3200's go after the retirement of the 2200's and 2400's.

You have to better quantify your question, since, again, as the bus deliveries indicated, it is one thing if you are talking about the base order, and another if you are assuming that all the options will be exercised. We don't know what CTA brass is thinking. Bus Hunter and I discussed that the last 84 of the option ones were supposed to be for the airport express, my source being a consultant's report on the airport express that was posted shortly before Carole Brown said on her blog that she wasn't interested in implementing what was suggested in that report in that form.

So far, CTA has exercised the base order and Option 1, for 406 cars. It would take about 340 to replace all the 2200s and 2400s. The current allocation to the Blue (considering that the Pink no longer uses the same cars) is about 300. Hence, that calculus indicates that there would be, at the end of Option 1, 100 or so cars that could be used for something else. One might have thought that some of that excess could be used for the Brown Line expansion, but whether it was because the order was delayed for 2 years because CTA brass at the time specified DC traction motors, and they had a consultant work on it for another two years to develop specification for AC ones on which the carbuilders would bid, or the intent behind the Brown Line project was to increase train length and decrease frequency, one doesn't know if that was or will be the plan.

Also, one doesn't know whether any of the proposed New Starts would come within this time frame. For instance, the report on the Red Line extension indicates a need for an additional 78 cars

In any event, since the 5000s don't train with prior series, they probably won't be scattered around the system, and since the Purple Line basically runs part time, I would rule it out. Various low frequency lines like the Green and Purple probably will get 2600s to replace their 2400s.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If the cars end up on the blue line first, they will have #2200's that can't run alone (because they are inaccessible), #2600's that can't be paired with #5000's, and #5000's which can only run alone.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If the cars end up on the blue line first, they will have #2200's that can't run alone (because they are inaccessible), #2600's that can't be paired with #5000's, and #5000's which can only run alone.

There is always going to be some interim situation.

However, the 2200s will be dropping fast, once the production order deliveries begin.

So long as the 5000s are early in the delivery cycle, there will be some line with 5000 trains and earlier generation trains. No different than the ME having 26 cars that can't train with the other approx. 140.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is always going to be some interim situation.

However, the 2200s will be dropping fast, once the production order deliveries begin.

So long as the 5000s are early in the delivery cycle, there will be some line with 5000 trains and earlier generation trains. No different than the ME having 26 cars that can't train with the other approx. 140.

What I would like to know is why would they design the 5000 series to not be able to train with the existing cars in my opinion that should have been one of the main things about the new cars is that they are able to train with the existing cars.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What I would like to know is why would they design the 5000 series to not be able to train with the existing cars in my opinion that should have been one of the main things about the new cars is that they are able to train with the existing cars.

Apparently, because to train with them, the motors would have to be DC, but that's obsolete.

After all, I mentioned that the order was delayed 2 years because the brains at CTA originally had specifications for DC cars, and it was reported that the carbuilders would not bid on them, and hence the 5000s (like the South Shore and the ME 1200s) are AC.

Also there were previously series of cars that didn't intertrain; the 4000s didn't connect with the 6000s, and the 6000s didn't train with the 2000s. Total backward capability would mean that CTA would still have to use 1924 technology. Hence, saying they have to train is sort of is like saying you have to keep your 1964 Plymouth, even though you can't get parts for it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Spotted a 5000s test train on eastbound Forest Park Branch of the Blue Line early Tuesday afternoon. Didn't get a chance to see the car numbers since the westbound train I was on was in motion at top speed at the time. Just had time enough to see the boring LED destination sign showing "O'Hare" when passing it. I still agree with everyone else that color changing signs should be used to distinguish the different lines that these cars may be assigned once in revenue service.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm surprised to hear that they would have a final destination showing, rather than "not in service."

My guess (A very educated one) would be to make sure the signs work on the right line when programmed, which was probably when you saw it "test displaying" O'Hare. When I saw them on the Red Line last week they were displaying not in service.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm surprised to hear that they would have a final destination showing, rather than "not in service."

If the setup is anything like on buses, the signs probably need to be set in order to perform full testing of the GPS system. Unlike the current rolling stock, next-stop announcements on the 5000s will be fully automated. There have been some bugs thus far with the cars not announcing stops or announcing stops at the wrong times.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If the setup is anything like on buses, the signs probably need to be set in order to perform full testing of the GPS system. Unlike the current rolling stock, next-stop announcements on the 5000s will be fully automated. There have been some bugs thus far with the cars not announcing stops or announcing stops at the wrong times.

Since they will partially be in the subway, I suppose some sort of dead reckoning would be needed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If the setup is anything like on buses, the signs probably need to be set in order to perform full testing of the GPS system. Unlike the current rolling stock, next-stop announcements on the 5000s will be fully automated. There have been some bugs thus far with the cars not announcing stops or announcing stops at the wrong times.

I can imagine. It's going to be a challenge to keep this in working order from what I've seen of the buses. Some display or say a stop a block after the stop some don't say it at all if you have a defect. Hopefully an operator can override the system and announce stops verbally because there will be times when that is needed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can imagine. It's going to be a challenge to keep this in working order from what I've seen of the buses. Some display or say a stop a block after the stop some don't say it at all if you have a defect. Hopefully an operator can override the system and announce stops verbally because there will be times when that is needed.

There's got to be more to the system than GPS as Busjack points out that they are in the subway where GPS can't work. Also, unlike the buses, they can only stop at one place. The system in NYC works and it is underground more than any of our lines. Maybe since there was so much thought into bringing cell service to the subways, it is somehow connected to that????

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There's got to be more to the system than GPS as Busjack points out that they are in the subway where GPS can't work. Also, unlike the buses, they can only stop at one place. The system in NYC works and it is underground more than any of our lines. Maybe since there was so much thought into bringing cell service to the subways, it is somehow connected to that????

I wonder if this has any link with the absence of next train information missing on the Titan signs so far. It would be nice to have the signs do what said they would do.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There's got to be more to the system than GPS as Busjack points out that they are in the subway where GPS can't work. Also, unlike the buses, they can only stop at one place. The system in NYC works and it is underground more than any of our lines. Maybe since there was so much thought into bringing cell service to the subways, it is somehow connected to that????

There's probably an odometer that can be used either primarily or as a fall back when GPS is unavailable.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I wonder if this has any link with the absence of next train information missing on the Titan signs so far.

One would think that the signal system knows when the next train is coming. It was able to tell whatever the automated announcement is that "a train is approaching from downtown." The Titan signs shouldn't be too much more complicated, except for determining that if a train passes the signal block at Cumberland, it will be two minutes before it gets to Rosemont, unless the signals tell it to stop on the way.

Giving the GPS equivalent to the train is more complicated, and Kevin mentioning an odometer is about equivalent to me saying dead reckoning. Supposedly there are also systems where a device on the wayside "tells the train" that it is approaching a certain station (to which I think ibebobo is referring), but no indication that something like that has been installed on the CTA.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Apparently, because to train with them, the motors would have to be DC, but that's obsolete.

On NJT in the 1990's, the rebuilt Arrow-III MU's (with AC traction) did MU with non-rebuilt Arrow-II's (now all scrapped). Also, Amtrak may well MU an AEM-7 AC and a DC (half have gotten rebuilt).

With the 5000's, I think it has more to do with the variable controller, and horrendous bucking and jerking that would result.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On NJT in the 1990's, the rebuilt Arrow-III MU's (with AC traction) did MU with non-rebuilt Arrow-II's (now all scrapped). Also, Amtrak may well MU an AEM-7 AC and a DC (half have gotten rebuilt).

With the 5000's, I think it has more to do with the variable controller, and horrendous bucking and jerking that would result.

All you need are inverters to train AC's and DC's together. St. Louis currently does this with older and newer Siemens LRC's.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

All you need are inverters to train AC's and DC's together. St. Louis currently does this with older and newer Siemens LRC's.

It's my understanding that this would be pretty difficult, since the AC trains have virtually unlimited power settings, and the older DC trains have like 3 or 4. It's like a volume knob versus a lightswitch. I'm sure it's possible to train them all together with some extra equipment, but it would seem to negate many the advantages of having an AC train in the first place.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's my understanding that this would be pretty difficult, since the AC trains have virtually unlimited power settings, and the older DC trains have like 3 or 4. It's like a volume knob versus a lightswitch. I'm sure it's possible to train them all together with some extra equipment, but it would seem to negate many the advantages of having an AC train in the first place.

The other thing to consider is that the CTA's DC cars have mechanical cam controllers under the cars, as it was reported in Krambles's book that the chopper (electronic) control tests on the 2400s failed because of interference with the cab signal system. One of the reasons why the signal systems are now being upgraded is to avoid that issue with the obviously electronically controlled AC cars.

I originally thought that training could be possible, as in any MU system since 1897, the cab controller only sends signals to the controllers under each car, but apparently there are too many complications to make it practical in CTA's and Metra's situations.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Today I spotted the 5000 series test train leaving Harlem on the Green Line. The digital sign display was Ashland at the top and 63rd on the bottom. On one side you could see the longitudinal seating, but the other side had like a wooden work station.

Again the destination was, or at least the signage said Ashland/63. But the previous live train that left also was an Ashland/63 train. So if the 59th Junction is automated to automatically switch between Ashland branch and Cottage branch, what would they do to ensure that this train was routed correctly and not cause a derailment with the new equipment?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Today I spotted the 5000 series test train leaving Harlem on the Green Line. The digital sign display was Ashland at the top and 63rd on the bottom. On one side you could see the longitudinal seating, but the other side had like a wooden work station.

Again the destination was, or at least the signage said Ashland/63. But the previous live train that left also was an Ashland/63 train. So if the 59th Junction is automated to automatically switch between Ashland branch and Cottage branch, what would they do to ensure that this train was routed correctly and not cause a derailment with the new equipment?

Are you thinking that the station controls where the train will go? Maybe it's the opposite and the train is programmed to make the switch, or even the combination of the two. But if the destination sign says one thing from the start, then that train has to have some control over the station.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Are you thinking that the station controls where the train will go? Maybe it's the opposite and the train is programmed to make the switch, or even the combination of the two. But if the destination sign says one thing from the start, then that train has to have some control over the station.

Krambles said that with regard to the original setup, there was a tower at the 61st yard to deal with irregular moves. Of course, since then the track was all stripped and the shop burned down.

Probably more relevant is finding out who was in control when the shuttle got stuck in the switch a couple of weeks ago, leading to 4 people getting fired. Among one of them was the "control tower worker" according to Channel 2, which I think answers the question.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...