5000-series - Updates

[renardo870]

I saw an 8 car consist @ Roosevelt/Wabash station going south last nite. caught me off guard but I believe the head car was 5067-67 or 5065-66 It was following the Midway route.

[qwantae]

I saw an 8 car consist @ Roosevelt/Wabash station going south last nite. caught me off guard but I believe the head car was 5067-67 or 5065-66 It was following the Midway route.

Could be on it's way to Midway or 63rd/ Loomis yard.

[Mr.cta85]

Could be on it's way to Midway or 63rd/ Loomis yard.

Im no busjack or anything but I would say that they were going to 63rd and Loomis on the Green Line because someone else reported them being at the other end of the Green Line at Harlem yard just a few days prior to this.

[Busjack]

Im no busjack or anything but I would say that they were going to 63rd and Loomis on the Green Line because someone else reported them being at the other end of the Green Line at Harlem yard just a few days prior to this.

Heck if I know.

However, let's throw this one out. Emanuel had the unveiling at Midway, because he wasn't going to the 54th Yard in Cicero. So, he won't be going to the Lake Yard in Forest Park, either. Would he show up with Terry Peterson at 63rd and Loomis to unveil the fixed ones? Or is it "once bitten, twice shy?"

[renardo870]

Could be on it's way to Midway or 63rd/ Loomis yard.

It went to Midway Monday Nite. I was on the GreenLine train behind it and when we passed 17th St Junction U could see the 8 car train passing ove the RedLine tracks going to Midway.

[Amtrak41]

Stress tests to see if they keep cracking ?

[cta5658]

well we have our answer on why the 5000's were pulled:

Reason why the 5000's were pulled

[Guest]

well we have our answer on why the 5000's were pulled:

Reason why the 5000's were pulled

Thats good that they found the problem, an extremely serious flaw indeed!. I dont think any of us could imagine the magnitude of an accident or derailment had an incident happened, especially along the elevated portions. What I still dont understand is how they can agree to continue use of possible sub-standard parts from China as replacements even if it is another company. That unfortunately does not make sense to me!

[BusHunter]

well we have our answer on why the 5000's were pulled:

Reason why the 5000's were pulled

I wonder where or how CTA is going to store the cars without the truck assemblies? It sounds complicated and may happen one set at a time. I wonder why the whole car wasn't sent to Bombardier? It would seem they are burdening CTA. It's interesting, they do state in the press release to have all cars back in service by May 1st, with 120 on property by June. It would seem Bombardier would have to call it's workers back now to make that deadline. Looks as if they are trying to finish the manufacturing and delivery before the end of the contract so they can avoid the penalties on the contract.

[busfan2847]

well we have our answer on why the 5000's were pulled:

Reason why the 5000's were pulled

Welcome to the world of only being able to accept lowest bid!

[busfan2847]

I wonder where or how CTA is going to store the cars without the truck assemblies? It sounds complicated and may happen one set at a time. I wonder why the whole car wasn't sent to Bombardier? It would seem they are burdening CTA. It's interesting, they do state in the press release to have all cars back in service by May 1st, with 120 on property by June. It would seem Bombardier would have to call it's workers back now to make that deadline. Looks as if they are trying to finish the manufacturing and delivery before the end of the contract so they can avoid the penalties on the contract.

Sending the whole car back to Bombadier is expensive. It will be cheaper for Bombadier to pay cta to have cta fitters do the work or have Bombadier staff do the work on site (Skokie Shops?). CTA will probably be happier about that too as they have control/ oversight over the quality of the repair.

[BusHunter]

Sending the whole car back to Bombadier is expensive. It will be cheaper for Bombadier to pay cta to have cta fitters do the work or have Bombadier staff do the work on site (Skokie Shops?). CTA will probably be happier about that too as they have control/ oversight over the quality of the repair.

It probably would make more sense to send over new assemblies and just have it installed here take the old assemblies back to Bombardier fix those and put those on whatever car they are building at the time in Bombardier. I don't know if that's an issue being now lightly used parts on new cars, but it's a way it could be done. The Tribune makes it sound like they take the assemblies out and twiddle there thumbs until they get one back. I just don't see cars sitting around without the trucks for extended periods of time.

[Busjack]

Welcome to the world of only being able to accept lowest bid!

For one, that isn't true, or CTA would have about 1500 NABIs by now. CTA specs generally say that the bidder's experience and references are relevant considerations.

More relevant are these pieces of the article:

The setback in the CTA's efforts to replace its aged fleet of rail cars over the next few years shows the transit agency's heavy dependence on its contractors, who are competing against each other in the global market to submit the lowest bid while trying to fulfill their responsibility to provide quality products that are safe and will last for decades.

If this is believed, it is Bombardier that cut the corners in picking its suppliers. People were initially posting on comment boards "where did they get them, China?" Apparently so. They could have purchased Timken bearings, which are made in the U.S. According to Krambles, most CTA cars (2401 and up) have German trucks. But, apparently Bombardier decided to cut corners.

The other interesting thing in the article was:

The bad Chinese steel parts also point to weaknesses in the "Buy America'' clause in the $1.14 billion, taxpayer-funded CTA contract for 706 rail cars. The federal Buy America law is intended to protect U.S. jobs from cheaper foreign competition and help ensure that quality standards are met on products used in the American market.

No violations of the law appeared to occur in the Bombardier contract. But the Buy America law permits almost 40 percent of the cost of components to be manufactured outside the U.S., while final assembly must be done domestically.

The Obama administration is proposing a requirement that 100 percent of transit vehicles and components purchased with federal dollars must be produced in the U.S.

The 60% requirement was put in in the 1980s, basically because some agencies, especially CTA, thought that the U.S. buses were uncompetitive, and wanted Flyers and MANs instead of GMCs and Flxibles. If a 100% requirement were imposed, the only qualified bus manufacturers would be Gillig and ElDorado National, since the others import their bodies. Canada would not be pleased.

Besides, there really isn't a U.S. rail car building industry; the other alternatives would have been Alstom, Japanese, or Spanish, unless one really wanted to go third world.

Anyway, the two surprising things are

• CTA inspectors found it. Maybe they learned something from the NABI experience. But for whoever said this was another NABI, it seems you were right.
• Molly Sullivan actually said something substantive. But the end of the article indicates that they are still fighting a Freedom of Information request, even though a public contract is public information. The Emanuel administration is not compiling a good record in that regard.

[Busjack]

It probably would make more sense to send over new assemblies and just have it installed here take the old assemblies back to Bombardier fix those and put those on whatever car they are building at the time in Bombardier

Basically, the indication is that whatever is done, it is Bombardier's problem, so I would let them worry about it.

[geneking7320]

I asked this question on another forum:

who did Bombardier use for this part on the subway cars they did for New York?

Gene King

[RJL6000]

Here is an update on the 5000 series problem:

New CTA train cars had dangerous flaw

The problems were with the bearings that were produced at the Bombardier-Sifang joint venture plant in China. Those bearings are currently being replaced with bearings made by two new suppliers (one in Germany, the other in China), and the CTA's goal now is to start putting the trains (at least the 92 cars that have been built prior to the recall, if CBS Chicago's reports were to be believed) back into service this May 1, with the goal being to have 120 of the new cars into passenger service by June.

[Busjack]

I asked this question on another forum:

who did Bombardier use for this part on the subway cars they did for New York?

Gene King

Given Bombardier's secrecy, I don't think you are going to get an answer.

For instance, the 2400s had Portuguese bodies and German trucks. The 2600s had Budd bodies, but even though Budd had a truck design used on the 2200s, Krambles said that they used German trucks and motor alternators, even though Budd fabricated the bodies. The 3200s have Brazilian shells and German trucks.

In this case, it appears to be Bombardier trucks, but apparently made with Chinese subcomponents. I'm surprised that the name of the Chinese company came out.

This sort of reminds me of when I worked in QC at Inland Steel--we knew that Inland was shipping to the Ford Stamping Plant and Campbell's Soup because the rejects were coming back from there. However, I am sure that 99% of the customers didn't know what steel was in the cars or cans. And if you are buying a car today, Car and Driver says that only the Honda Accord and Toyota Camry meet standards for "made in America"-- in that case, at least 75% U.S. and Canadian content.

[geneking7320]

Given Bombardier's secrecy, I don't think you are going to get an answer.

For instance, the 2400s had Portuguese bodies and German trucks. The 2600s had Budd bodies, but even though Budd had a truck design used on the 2200s, Krambles said that they used German trucks and motor alternators, even though Budd fabricated the bodies. The 3200s have Brazilian shells and German trucks.

In this case, it appears to be Bombardier trucks, but apparently made with Chinese subcomponents. I'm surprised that the name of the Chinese company came out.

This sort of reminds me of when I worked in QC at Inland Steel--we knew that Inland was shipping to the Ford Stamping Plant and Campbell's Soup because the rejects were coming back from there. However, I am sure that 99% of the customers didn't know what steel was in the cars or cans. And if you are buying a car today, Car and Driver says that only the Honda Accord and Toyota Camry meet standards for "made in America"-- in that case, at least 75% U.S. and Canadian content.

Hi Busjack;

I didn't know the 2400 carbodies were Portuguese.

Thanks for the info!

[Busjack]

Hi Busjack;

I didn't know the 2400 carbodies were Portuguese.

Thanks for the info!

Was both in CERA 115 and Krambles's book. CERA 115 had a picture of them being unloaded at the dock in Philadelphia (page 93).

[sw4400]

According to Chicago-l.org:

-The 2200's were built by Budd Company with the Trucks built by Budd Pioneer III

-The 2400's were built by Boeing-Vertol with the Trucks built by Wegmann

-The 2600's were built by Budd Company/Transit America with the Trucks built by Wegmann

-The 3200's were built by Morrison/Knudsen with the Trucks built by Duewag

-The 5000's were built by Bombardier Transit Corporation with the Trucks built by Bombardier

If Wegmann or Duewag still exist, why not have them do the trucks? You have proof in the 2400's, 2600's and 3200's that these Trucks are sound.

[sw4400]

You know, I don't want to compare ANYTHING with the company that has been a disgrace to the Transit Bus Industry(NABI), but these paragraphs from the Tribune make me want to compare Bombardier to it, making them the NABI of the Rail System.... (Story)

Another question is why the CTA purchasing and law departments decided to work quietly with Bombardier for months instead of perhaps voiding the contract over a grievous and potentially deadly series of errors, and why Claypool did not publicly disclose the severity of the problem until the Tribune compiled most of the evidence itself through CTA sources.

Sullivan said Bombardier has cooperated in the investigation and aggressively pursued solutions.

The Tribune has peppered the CTA with inquiries since 2010, shortly after Bombardier delivered 10 prototypes of the new rail cars for testing in Chicago. The CTA last year rejected a Freedom of Information Act request submitted by the newspaper on the Bombardier deal.

On Tuesday, the CTA stalled on another Freedom of Information Act request from the Tribune seeking a copy of the Bombardier contract. The letter from Brigett Bevan, the CTA's Freedom of Information officer, cited "a need for consultation'' before deciding whether to release the public contract, which was signed in 2006 and amended as the CTA added more trains to its order.

After the crisis erupted over the journal bearing housings, Bombardier officials attempted to force the CTA to accept an unsatisfactory solution, according to sources. The company also went to City Hall in an attempt to strong-arm negotiations over an option that was eventually exercised for the CTA to buy more rail cars, the sources said.

NABI Part II, NABI on the Rails????

[BusHunter]

You know, I don't want to compare ANYTHING with the company that has been a disgrace to the Transit Bus Industry(NABI), but these paragraphs from the Tribune make me want to compare Bombardier to it, making them the NABI of the Rail System....

NABI Part II, NABI on the Rails????

All were missing is the litigation and it will be NABI. And they still haven't received the fixed cars yet. Parts of the prototypes now will make there 3rd journey to Bombardier. It has taken us almost 3 years to get to car 53, many more if you figure the unbiddable DC #3500's. I hope it's smooth sailing now, but I have my doubts.

[CURRENTZ_09]

CTA should be embarrased. First the NABI'S and now the 5000-series? You claim to want to give quality World-Class service but your fleet is not up to par? What's the problem CTA?

[ryanbytes]

I'm not sure if they could really drop the order. Who else would the CTA go to?

[ChicagoNova]

Spotted 5000 Series rail cars in the loop early this afternoon. 6-car consist. Didn't get the number of the lead car.