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This explanation would really boggle the mind if we looked at the Orange line. (Power/signalling is not modern enough) We are talking the most modern line at CTA. Why they never got #5000's I can't explain. You know that could open up a pool of #3200's for the blue line. That's better than just #2600's.

But really the red herring, that we've got to ask is why the Purple line is parking most #5000's for around 138 hrs a week. (in use for roughly 30-40 hrs a week) While blue line is running cars two generations ago and the oldest 24/7. There something wrong here with that. I'd be surprised if this has never come up in CTA discussion. Obviously the executives pushing for consolidation are convincing or just too overpowered in seniority or title.

Really though the big mistake of the future is the incompatibility of 7000's and 5000's. If one car make fails you have a major issue and to say a car won't fail is niave in my opinion because all cars have had some issue in there lives.

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40 minutes ago, BusHunter said:

that we've got to ask is why the Purple line is parking most #5000's for around 138 hrs a week. (in use for roughly 30-40 hrs a week) While blue line is running cars two generations ago and the oldest 24/7. There something wrong here with that. I'd be surprised if this has never come up in CTA discussion.

Sorry, it did come up. While that's superficially the case, various posters have noted that cars from Howard Yard are randomly assigned (as also indicated that there are RPY maps in all cars)

40 minutes ago, BusHunter said:

Really though the big mistake of the future is the incompatibility of 7000's and 5000's. If one car make fails you have a major issue and to say a car won't fail is niave in my opinion because all cars have had some issue in there lives.

CTA faced that question. The protest documents indicated that even Bombardier conceded that the 7000s would be more advanced than the 5000s, and then you have to throw in that nobody else was apparently willing to bid on the 5000s spec., meaning CTA would have overpaid, and be stuck with a contractor that NY MTA determined was not competent to bid on its work.

This comment seems a combination of @sw4400's "everything is going to go wrong, like with the NABIs" and "CTA should never have gone from 6000s to 2000s in 1960, and certainly not from 3200s to 5000s in 2006." Remember, the only reason it did that was that it couldn't get bidders on the 3200 compatible spec. 10 years later, it could only get one bidder on the 5000s compatible spec.

Finally, 10 cars furnished by CRRC will have to undergo a year of testing, just like the Bombardier cars did, before notice to proceed will be given for 2020 deliveries. Again, you're assuming that they won't pass.

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5 hours ago, Busjack said:

Sorry, it did come up. While that's superficially the case, various posters have noted that cars from Howard Yard are randomly assigned (as also indicated that there are RPY maps in all cars)

CTA faced that question. The protest documents indicated that even Bombardier conceded that the 7000s would be more advanced than the 5000s, and then you have to throw in that nobody else was apparently willing to bid on the 5000s spec., meaning CTA would have overpaid, and be stuck with a contractor that NY MTA determined was not competent to bid on its work.

This comment seems a combination of @sw4400's "everything is going to go wrong, like with the NABIs" and "CTA should never have gone from 6000s to 2000s in 1960, and certainly not from 3200s to 5000s in 2006." Remember, the only reason it did that was that it couldn't get bidders on the 3200 compatible spec. 10 years later, it could only get one bidder on the 5000s compatible spec.

Finally, 10 cars furnished by CRRC will have to undergo a year of testing, just like the Bombardier cars did, before notice to proceed will be given for 2020 deliveries. Again, you're assuming that they won't pass.

As usual you are misrepresenting my statement. I'm just saying in a realistic world something is going to fail hopefully its not major enough to sideline anything but if it did happen cta 5000's cannot cover the entire system.

Remember, the #5000's did pass the initial inspection. It's problems were related to premature wear. Think of it like the space shuttle, hundreds of contractors had bid on it's contract, (all successful bids were the cheapest bids) but the right circumstances developed which caused two accidents. 

Everything has the capacity to fail, we just hope they are not major fails. Oh yeah the NABI's passed the cta inspection, so this must mean they are good, right Busjack? :P

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7 hours ago, BusHunter said:

As usual you are misrepresenting my statement. I'm just saying in a realistic world something is going to fail hopefully its not major enough to sideline anything but if it did happen cta 5000's cannot cover the entire system.

Remember, the #5000's did pass the initial inspection. It's problems were related to premature wear. Think of it like the space shuttle, hundreds of contractors had bid on it's contract, (all successful bids were the cheapest bids) but the right circumstances developed which caused two accidents. 

Everything has the capacity to fail, we just hope they are not major fails. Oh yeah the NABI's passed the cta inspection, so this must mean they are good, right Busjack? :P

I think we're  getting off track here.  If you're  complaint is that 5000s should be on the Blue Line and not sitting  in  Howard Yard, re read the article concerning the 5000s and its power usage  versus the 2600s. I believe the  3200s will eventually make their way to the BlueLine with some 2600s going to Orange and/or Brown.  The 2600s will stay around until the 7000s fill the rail yards.  They have  to stay in case your 7000s "fail."  I think your real issue is you just want  different  equipment to  your own  neighborhood  and those other neighborhoods should get the 2600s.  Even if the Blue gets 3200s, the 2600s aren't going anywhere. 

 

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9 hours ago, BusHunter said:

Remember, the #5000's did pass the initial inspection. It's problems were related to premature wear.

You misrepresented what has been amply documented here. There were defectively manufactured wheel bearing journals, and the assembly plant defectively welded the front ends. Both were attributable to Bombardier or its sourcing and discovered by CTA inspectors in the Bombardier plant.

If a year or so is "premature wear," how are they going to last the service life of 35 years?

9 hours ago, BusHunter said:

Think of it like the space shuttle, hundreds of contractors had bid on it's contract, (all successful bids were the cheapest bids)

Your're playing sw again. Technical merit is a criterion, and in this case, the parts had to pass CTA inspection. In these two cases, they did not.

9 hours ago, BusHunter said:

Oh yeah the NABI's passed the cta inspection, so this must mean they are good, right Busjack?

You seem incapable of reading what @jajuan posted, which was that procedures changed as a result. I'll do it in bold: CTA did not decide to send inspectors to the NABI plant until about bus 7675.  Also, CTA never accepted the NABIs. That's how it got a settlement, legally speaking.

Ask yourself: Why are you posting such easily refutable garbage?

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27 minutes ago, Busjack said:

You misrepresented what has been amply documented here. There were defectively manufactured wheel bearing journals, and the assembly plant defectively welded the front ends. Both were attributable to Bombardier or its sourcing and discovered by CTA inspectors in the Bombardier plant.

If a year or so is "premature wear," how are they going to last the service life of 35 years?

Your're playing sw again. Technical merit is a criterion, and in this case, the parts had to pass CTA inspection. In these two cases, they did not.

You seem incapable of reading what @jajuan posted, which was that procedures changed as a result. I'll do it in bold: CTA did not decide to send inspectors to the NABI plant until about bus 7675.  Also, CTA never accepted the NABIs. That's how it got a settlement, legally speaking.

Ask yourself: Why are you posting such easily refutable garbage?

Ask yourself why then did the NABI's continue well into the #7700's completing the order. Why did they run a few years? If you remember what happened which you don't, a bus failed in service nearly separating according to CTA officials. It was then and only then the buses future was questioned. CTA inspector???.... He didn't find anything until the fault occurred. Need I remind you, when #7675 was released in service and it was, according to the NABI list on here complete with the date it was running with passengers. Now if a defective hubular joint was found in a test, CTA officials sure thought it was OK to run it in service then. #7542 was actually the test bus, even though it wasn't.

As far the #5000's, you did state they had two years to inspect them while they ran in service on various lines. I guess they didn't learn anything in those two years because they gave the ok to proceed with the order. if it wasn't premature wear, why did the wheel bearing journals not fail during the two year test? 2 plus 2 equals 4, but maybe you don't understand that. I'll leave you to your ignorance, they say ignorance is bliss.

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35 minutes ago, BusHunter said:

As far the #5000's, you did state they had two years to inspect them while they ran in service on various lines

I said one year. Can't you read?

35 minutes ago, BusHunter said:

if it wasn't premature wear, why did the wheel bearing journals not fail during the two year test?

They NEVER did fail. CTA inspectors at the factory discovered air voids in the castings.

35 minutes ago, BusHunter said:

. I'll leave you to your ignorance, they say ignorance is bliss.

I was going to say something that would violate the community guidelines, so I won't.

But I suggest that you reread about 10 years of this forum and inform yourself before you post another rhetorical tirade completely devoid of factual support.

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8 hours ago, artthouwill said:

I think we're  getting off track here.  If you're  complaint is that 5000s should be on the Blue Line and not sitting  in  Howard Yard, re read the article concerning the 5000s and its power usage  versus the 2600s. I believe the  3200s will eventually make their way to the BlueLine with some 2600s going to Orange and/or Brown.  The 2600s will stay around until the 7000s fill the rail yards.  They have  to stay in case your 7000s "fail."  I think your real issue is you just want  different  equipment to  your own  neighborhood  and those other neighborhoods should get the 2600s.  Even if the Blue gets 3200s, the 2600s aren't going anywhere. 

 

Only thing with the power issue is then why did we see a test train at o'hare. If it has power issues it shouldn't be able to run there. I really don't think the #3200's will go to the blue line or the #5000's.

If we do the math the #2600's can't exist while the same number of #7000's do. In other words if 200 7000's show up, 200 2600's say bye bye. Now if 200 7000's fail uh oh!! I'm not saying they will but having incompatible cars between the #5000's and #7000's is just folly. This is a big mistake with ramifications to be a 40 year mistake.

As far as me caring what equipment goes to my neighborhood. I really don't care. I stopped using the system, and haven't used it now in about 6 months. My only interest in CTA now would be as a transit enthusiast or employer, not a customer. There are better ways to get around town and I'm sure people are discovering them. It really is true because I'm seeing it with my own eyes working in the field. There are really smart companies out there and if the competition repeatedly ignores them they go under. Just talk to Kmart, nobody wants to shop at a 70's store they want to shop at a modern store like Target. Have you seen the new remodel?  Same concept. Some companies are so smart they have the potential to wipe out lots of competition. Walmart has done that through its savvy purchasing. Uber has the potential to wipe out Divvy with it's electric bikes because it's just better. They have started Uber Pool Express in the last month and it's really taking off 40-60 percent of riders are using it. I asked someone why they are using it. They said there fare is half price (like 6 bucks) So let me see $2 bikes $6 pools. Close to $3 transit fares. What would you use to get around town?

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I would imagine that the substations have enough spare capacity to cover the difference between one 2600 and one 5000-series train, but not for the entire fleet to be converted.

At any rate, various way improvements to tracks, power, and signals are in various stages of implementation. Considering there is just over two years until the 7000s are due to start arriving en masse and that there are some 2600s around on the Orange Line for retirement, there should be a good alignment between car deliveries and improvements.

In any case, new cars for the Blue Line can't come soon enough. The sound issues on the 2600s make a ride through the subway a pain (although this has ironically been partially mitigated through some new slow zones). Larger-scale testing of 5000s and 7000s on the Blue Line at the same time in a few years could also provide some insights into ideal seating arrangements.

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2 hours ago, Tcmetro said:

I would imagine that the substations have enough spare capacity to cover the difference between one 2600 and one 5000-series train, but not for the entire fleet to be converted.

That essentially seems to be it. The article originally cited said there wasn't enough power for both more trains and to put 5000s there.

This seems to be essentially the same issue as the first Sprague streetcars in Richmond Va.--essentially that the voltage dropped until the cars got spread out. Except, of course, one is now dealing with electronic equipment.

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1 hour ago, Busjack said:

That essentially seems to be it. The article originally cited said there wasn't enough power for both more trains and to put 5000s there.

This seems to be essentially the same issue as the first Sprague streetcars in Richmond Va.--essentially that the voltage dropped until the cars got spread out. Except, of course, one is now dealing with electronic equipment.

This is the same reason that WMATA gave for not running 8-car trains all the time a few years ago. I'm not sure if they upgraded their power system, but I do believe they have cut frequencies which may allow for 8-car operations at peak.

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At this point the only thing I’ll miss about the 2600s are the additional seats compared to the 5000s (but 3200s are good too), the historical Budd value, and some of the quirky stuff (lights dimming from third rail gaps and stuff like that). The jerkiness and vibrations are just too much at this point.

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16 hours ago, Busjack said:

That essentially seems to be it. The article originally cited said there wasn't enough power for both more trains and to put 5000s there.

This seems to be essentially the same issue as the first Sprague streetcars in Richmond Va.--essentially that the voltage dropped until the cars got spread out. Except, of course, one is now dealing with electronic equipment.

They wouldn't have enough to fully equip the blue line with 5000s anyway. But a few trains could take the load off the others. Where they are lost is on consolidation. I wonder what some former execs would say on the subject. Not only do you put a lot of old equipment on one line you put a lot on that lines maintenance 

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32 minutes ago, BusHunter said:

I wonder what some former execs would say on the subject.

If the executives are like Frank Kruiesi, Ron Huberman, Frosty Claypool, or anyone they hired, I don't care.

Also, remember that Huberman's crew came up with the idea that to consolidate parts inventory, Archer should send its 1000s to Chicago and Chicago send its 6400s to Archer. Yet, somehow you claimed that the bus system was not run in this manner.

Let's also remember that the former execs thought that car builders would bid on the 3200s spec. in about 2004.

32 minutes ago, BusHunter said:

Not only do you put a lot of old equipment on one line you put a lot on that lines maintenance 

If CTA is in fact 400 cars short, the maintenance burden would be placed somewhere. Only difference is that it is concentrated in 3 shops (Rosemont, Forest Park, Midway), instead of making, say, 6 shops having to work on that series of cars. Just as FG was supposedly expert in keeping bus 301 running for 30 years, the shops with the 2600s are more expert at keeping 2600s running (unless you can demonstrate that Howard shop would have done a better job on the runaway 3100s). On the other hand, 4 shops don't have to learn how to maintain 5000s.

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59 minutes ago, Busjack said:

If the executives are like Frank Kruiesi, Ron Huberman, Frosty Claypool, or anyone they hired, I don't care.

Also, remember that Huberman's crew came up with the idea that to consolidate parts inventory, Archer should send its 1000s to Chicago and Chicago send its 6400s to Archer. Yet, somehow you claimed that the bus system was not run in this manner.

Let's also remember that the former execs thought that car builders would bid on the 3200s spec. in about 2004.

If CTA is in fact 400 cars short, the maintenance burden would be placed somewhere. Only difference is that it is concentrated in 3 shops (Rosemont, Forest Park, Midway), instead of making, say, 6 shops having to work on that series of cars. Just as FG was supposedly expert in keeping bus 301 running for 30 years, the shops with the 2600s are more expert at keeping 2600s running (unless you can demonstrate that Howard shop would have done a better job on the runaway 3100s). On the other hand, 4 shops don't have to learn how to maintain 5000s.

Yeah but what I'm saying is you have 2 shops only so many pits and only so much space to repair them. If more than 24 need repair you could see a maintenance backlog forming. You could address it with more mechanics but really more space is needed. Don't ask me how forest pk and Rosemont can take care of all this old equipment. Any trips to Skokie shops is an hour roadtime instead of 15 minutes. Blue line maintenance really need a commendation for their efforts 

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22 minutes ago, BusHunter said:

Yeah but what I'm saying is you have 2 shops only so many pits and only so much space to repair them.

I'm sure that current CTA brass has given you a pass to inspect and audit them.

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8 hours ago, Busjack said:

I'm sure that current CTA brass has given you a pass to inspect and audit them.

common sense dictates that you shouldn't need a pass for the answer to that. Maybe Alstom did one heck of a rehab.

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11 hours ago, BusHunter said:

common sense dictates that you shouldn't need a pass for the answer to that. Maybe Alstom did one heck of a rehab.

Somehow, empirical evidence isn't your cup of tea.

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18 minutes ago, Busjack said:

Somehow, empirical evidence isn't your cup of tea.

Where is the evidence counselor? Btw I'm not British.

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19 minutes ago, BusHunter said:

Where is the evidence counselor?

You made the factual assertions, Sherlock. The community guidelines say to back them up. Nothing about "common sense" substituting for facts.

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2 hours ago, Busjack said:

You made the factual assertions, Sherlock. The community guidelines say to back them up. Nothing about "common sense" substituting for facts.

That's why I'm waiting for your response. I could say the same about you unless you are touring cta shops.

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2 hours ago, BusHunter said:

That's why I'm waiting for your response.

You got my response. I didn't make any assertion about pits in CTA shops--you did.

Which, again, should end it.

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2 hours ago, Busjack said:

You got my response. I didn't make any assertion about CTA pits in shops--you did.

Which, again, should end it.

Which was?

Bottom line this is not a court of law this is a public forum in which opinions are allowed. For that matter you havent proved your point either.

 

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56 minutes ago, BusHunter said:

m in which opinions are allowed.

True, but you made assertions of fact of which you had no actual knowlege (and in some cases contradicted easily ascertainable facts).

At least I said that while I was reporting on what CTA posted, I wasn't vouching for it.

But if you think you are accomplishing something posting statements of fact, that when challenged you write off as opinion, that's your business. That still doesn't make statements such as "5000s can run on the Blue Line" "the journals failed," or regarding the number of cars and pits in the shop facts. And, other than pointing that out, are not worth a reply.

I don't know where they taught you that facts were opinion..Most elementary schools taught that they aren't.

 

And BTW, you don't posit stawmen and expect me to follow them down a rat hole. You did that several times in this topic.

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