7900-series Nova LFS - Updates

[Guest]

I think you misread what Busjack was alluding to. He's not talking about amending the 7900s contract to get 25 electric buses. He was referring the recent application to CMAP to fund an entirely different possible contract to purchase 25 electric buses to add with 700 and 701. That application got rejected and Busjack was saying that maybe CTA believes it can successfully appeal to have rejected application reinstated or that they can make a different application that's more successful. Getting back to the 7900s themselves though, the announcement of the plan for buying 125 more should put to rest all the cries that FG won't get any at all and that the northwest side is being treated as some wayward stepchild, especially as has been said several times over beyond being able to count that the Blue Line and FG's routes don't operate in some impenetrable bubble. The west and north sides as well as the downtown area has also had to contend with that very same equipment these past 18 months.

 

Can you be more specific about your statement concerning downtown, the west side, the north side???  Very same equipment???  As far as what I see and Im sure some here as well, downtown, the west and north sides have benefited greatly as well in recent memory. Are we talking about the same transit system here???   Sorry, I completely disagree with a most of your statement here!  

Edited August 12, 2015 by Guest

[NewFlyerMCI]

#8119 is out on #74

 

[Busjack]

It depends on when the funds start to be sent to Nova Bus for the 125. The contract is already written with the option for up to 150 clean diesel buses. As soon as funding is allocated, buses should start to be built within 8 weeks of allocations reaching Nova. So for example, if first funding allocations reach them by September, operable buses should be ready for inspection and transport by November.

All of these are dependent on NOVA's production scheduling system. For instance, it has been pointed out before that Nova has NY and SEPTA buses already on its schedule, intermingled with the current CTA order (including the rumor that 23 of the CTA buses are in a separte build). I would tend to believe the statement in the Press Release that Rahm expects to get the first of the 125 about May 2016. Maybe budgeting enters into that, but they would not have exercised the option unless there were budgeted funds.

[Busjack]

This current contract can't be amended for 25 all-electric buses, as a clean diesel bus costs $500,000, a all-electric bus costs at least $1.1 million(cost of a New Flyer XE40, a Nova LFE might be more). What money remains in the contract wouldn't be enough to cover 25 all-electric buses. That, plus the fact that electric buses are so new to markets across the U.S and Canada, most TA's* are reluctant to do large quantities of them until test results through summer and winter climates and varying traffic conditions are satisfactorily met. And 25 electric buses may not seem like much, but that's $25,000,000 the CTA may be throwing away if the buses suffer catastrophic failures.

*=I know there is one that has ordered a large quantity of all-electric buses out there, but they are the pioneers for a large order.

 

I think you misread what Busjack was alluding to. He's not talking about amending the 7900s contract to get 25 electric buses. He was referring the recent application to CMAP to fund an entirely different possible contract to purchase 25 electric buses to add with 700 and 701. That application got rejected and Busjack was saying that maybe CTA believes it can successfully appeal to have rejected application reinstated or that they can make a different application that's more successful. ....

 

Yes to jajuan. The justification stated in that grant request was that the 25 electric buses to be delivered in 2019 would replace 25 17-year-old Nova buses, which emit so much quantifiable pollution compared to none by an electric bus.

Otherwise, unless Rahm couldn't come up with the additional $12.6 million in his petty cash account, I couldn't see why CTA didn't order the full 150. Maybe there is some other reason.

[Busjack]

Can you be more specific about your statement concerning downtown, the west side, the north side???  Very same equipment???  As far as what I see and Im sure some here as well, downtown, the west and north sides have benefited greatly as well in recent memory. Are we talking about the same transit system here???   Sorry, I completely disagree with a most of your statement here!  

85 Central and 91 Austin go into the west side. 56 goes downtown. However, it isn't the same as that everything between Diversey and Peterson runs out of FG.

[BusHunter]

All of these are dependent on NOVA's production scheduling system. For instance, it has been pointed out before that Nova has NY and SEPTA buses already on its schedule, intermingled with the current CTA order (including the rumor that 23 of the CTA buses are in a separte build). I would tend to believe the statement in the Press Release that Rahm expects to get the first of the 125 about May 2016. Maybe budgeting enters into that, but they would not have exercised the option unless there were budgeted funds.

yes, it sounds like these 125 will be 2016 models. Novabus didn't get the original #7900's out until late in the 2014 model year, the #8000's and #8100's are 2015 models. So it would seem they are doing so many buses a year, similar to the #6400's delivery. The #8200's were always planned for 2016, this is in the budget, so it not something new. Waiting until May is new, but that's most likely due to CTA dragging their feet on executing the option. They are now in line for 125 but they are at the end of the line.

BTW, #8125 is on the #65, so they seem to be skipping buses. Mechanical problems?

Edited August 12, 2015 by BusHunter

[Guest]

85 Central and 91 Austin go into the west side. 56 goes downtown. However, it isn't the same as that everything between Diversey and Peterson runs out of FG.

West side riders from North ave to Cermak Rd. have all of their east/west streets served by newer or rehabbed equipment from Kedzie Chicago, and NP garages.

Edited August 12, 2015 by Guest

[Brandon93]

I agree 100 percent!!!  Send this entire order to FG!  But I can also see CTA shipping its oldest New Flyers to FG!  

Since New Flyers are scattered over all system I say the rest of the 6 garages give up some of their New Flyers to 74th to match the number of Novas they had before they started the retirement of the 6400 series Novas.

[Busjack]

Since New Flyers are scattered over all system I say the rest of the 6 garages give up some of their New Flyers to 74th to match the number of Novas they had before they started the retirement of the 6400 series Novas.

I don't follow this one. 74th already is a mix of Novas and NFs,

FG is going to end up being some combination of NFs and Novas, because 125 new buses in 2016 isn't going to fill its capacity of about 250. As already indicated, if C gets 100 Novas, it will have to move at least 50 NFs somewhere else, presumably FG,

[jajuan]

Can you be more specific about your statement concerning downtown, the west side, the north side???  Very same equipment???  As far as what I see and Im sure some here as well, downtown, the west and north sides have benefited greatly as well in recent memory. Are we talking about the same transit system here???   Sorry, I completely disagree with a most of your statement here!  

Are you serious right now??? As Busjack beat me in to mentioning and pointing out. 85 and 91 go into the Austin area. 56 goes into downtown. The Blue Line has to  go into downtown to reach its Forest Park leg. And that leg does have to pass through the Near West and West sides to reach Forest Park unless the trains just magically sprout wings or antigravity devices and just fly from downtown to Forest Park. So that again covers downtown and the west side areas. Again as Busjack mentions, FG does cover all the east-west routes from Diversey to Peterson yes. However, he unwittingly alluded to my point about the north side as well. Last time I checked those east-west routes do indeed serve all north side areas from Lincoln Park and Lakeview on up to the Uptown, Edgewater, and West Rogers Park areas and don't just stay restricted to west of about Pulaski to stay true to your notion that the north side hasn't felt any effects either. And all that is before even pointing out yet again that FG is not the entirety of Northwest side CTA service. 53, 54, 65, 74 and to a small extent 57 and 73 all serve parts of the northwest side. 53, 54, 57 and 65 extend from their northwest side portions into portions of the west side while 73 and 74 go into portions of the north side. And all of them have been served by 6400s since Chicago did have about 85 to 90 of them on average after the 77th February 2014 purge of 6400s up until recent months. So that again covers north AND west sides. And what 6400s did move from Chicago sadly got dumped on FG. So as I stated the west and north side areas along with downtown have also felt the effects of that very same older equipment this past year and a half, or do you want to continue with this selectively narrow form of tunnel vision that the northwest side is being served in some impenetrable vacuum? Now as I've stated I'll agree with you that it's questionable planning on CTA's part to keep FG stacked with nothing 6400s all this time, but sorry I just don't agree with the narrow notion that only the northwest side alone has had to contend with that same old beat up equipment during that same time frame. 

[BusHunter]

Yeah but Jajuan I see his point. while you may have to contend with the #91 at Madison, you can choose to ride the #20 and get a new bus. FG riders in the heart of Fg territory don't have that choice.

[Busjack]

Yeah but Jajuan I see his point. while you may have to contend with the #91 at Madison, you can choose to ride the #20 and get a new bus. FG riders in the heart of Fg territory don't have that choice.

Doesn't do any good if you are trying to get to Austin and Belmont, for instance.

[BusHunter]

I don't follow this one. 74th already is a mix of Novas and NFs,

FG is going to end up being some combination of NFs and Novas, because 125 new buses in 2016 isn't going to fill its capacity of about 250. As already indicated, if C gets 100 Novas, it will have to move at least 50 NFs somewhere else, presumably FG,

I don't know, I get the feeling not all #6400's will retire at FG. If they have 257 buses, get 125 #8200's, that still leaves about 132 buses. While they may get 50 #1000's from Chicago now and maybe 20-25 later on when this suspended order shows up, they are still short 30-50 buses. Could we be having like a NP scenario when the #4000 MAN standards ran out of that garage for a few extra years?

Edited August 12, 2015 by BusHunter

[Busjack]

I don't know, I get the feeling not all #6400's will retire at FG. If they have 257 buses, get 125 #8200's, that still leaves about 132 buses. While they may get 50 #1000's from Chicago now and maybe 20-25 later on when this suspended order shows up, they are still short 30-50 buses. Could we be having like a NP scenario when the #4000 MAN standards ran out of that garage for a few extra years?

Possible, but once the rehabs are done, I don't see any justification for keeping huge numbers of 6400s around based on supposed increase in bus service (when bus ridership is down).

[jajuan]

Yeah but Jajuan I see his point. while you may have to contend with the #91 at Madison, you can choose to ride the #20 and get a new bus. FG riders in the heart of Fg territory don't have that choice.

But if your destination is along Austin, to keep with your example, hopping on the 20 wouldn't necessarily be of benefit. And Madison had a history of using a good number of 6400s, so it still wouldn't necessarily been of benefit. Now I'm not saying I don't see his point. I've acknowledged his point more times than I can count, but I'm sorry that point is still exaggerated to some degree especially if you consider that if someone is using the bus to get to work or school rather than pleasure riding they're not going to stand at the bus stop and risk being late from letting buses pass them up just for the intent of getting to ride on a newer bus. Nor are they going to try traveling off their intended travel path on a different bus route for that purpose. Not even we transit fans do that. We get on whatever bus model comes so we still make it on time. What if say three 6400s were running back to back as I've seen happen? You're not going to stand there to get that NF that's coming behind that pack and be late because that would mean willfully throwing away 30-45 minutes depending on the route in question, time of day and day of the week or holiday considerations. So my point stands that it's not just the northwest side alone that has contended with that very same old bus and rail equipment. Even if we take Chicago out of the equation, my point would still stand unless like I said before we want to say the Blue Line trains just magically fly in the sky from downtown to Forest Park or that the FG east-west routes from Diversey to Peterson do so between Pulaski and the lakefront. The northwest side does not exist or get transit service by why of a vacuum.

[Dawnlight]

If I remember correctly, didn't Chicago trade off their amber Novas for the oldest Flxible buses in the fleet back then? So it really isn't fair to say the NW side is being mistreated when other garages were "mistreated" in the past.

[Busjack]

If I remember correctly, didn't Chicago trade off their amber Novas for the oldest Flxible buses in the fleet back then? So it really isn't fair to say the NW side is being mistreated when other garages were "mistreated" in the past.

Not really, There was a swap when Archer went all Nova and C got all of its NFs. Maybe what you are thinking about is when 74 went from all 6000 series Flxibles to some NFs, and the 6000s were split about 4 garages (approximately 2008), or when Archer closed and its Novas were used to replace the 6000s, including at FG, as well as the ones at 74th and where 74th's were sent, resulting in C reacquiring Novas (2010 service cut).

[jajuan]

And some like to keep talking about oh the south side has been favored with the new and rehabbed buses, but it just occurred to me that what's been ignored that within 74th Garage, routes 44, 48, 75 and 94 have had to contend with being operated virtually exclusively with crappy 6400s and 62 and sometimes 59 with some regularity being operated with a significant majority of them despite 74th having NFs available. It took 74th getting it's share of 7900s along with what extra NFs were needed to cover the difference of 6400s that its 7900s didn't replace before any of those above routes started seeing NFs again with any significant regularity. And that's before even pointing out that 74th got only 30, let me say that again 30, NF 1000s assigned as brand new deliveries. Most of 74th's history of having 1000s assigned is marked with the huge majority of them having been second hand from other garages' uses. Buses 8000-8099 are really 74th's first large delivery of brand new buses since the 6000s that got delivered there brand back in the mid 1990s. So it makes my point even further that FGs routes aren't the only routes that's had to contend with old crappy equipment to operate service during all this recent time that's been discussed. 

[BusHunter]

Here's pictures of some new #8100's at Chicago.

#8124:

#8116:

#8119:

Unfortunately #8124 is probably going to be out of action for a few days. It was raining in the bus on it's first day in service!!  Embarrassing!! It was raining quite heavily too, the floor was all wet with a few small puddles. It was coming from right under the air conditioner in the front. The whole left side was dripping. I guess it's warranty time!! Question, CTA mechanics don't fix warranty stuff do they? Cause then the company loses money fixing a bo bus. They go to bus and truck for that?

I was also noticing on #8119, they have a rattling handicap seat on the left side. The forward facing one. It makes this weird vibration noise when the bus is moving. Kind of reminds me of the old #7500 Nabi's, the way they used to rattle. Maybe 3rd shift built the last 10 buses!!

[NewFlyerMCI]

#8122 on #65

#8123 on #70

#8125 on #20

#8126 on #54

[Busjack]

... Question, CTA mechanics don't fix warranty stuff do they? Cause then the company loses money fixing a bo bus. They go to bus and truck for that?

....

If they did, the manufacturer would have to reimburse CTA. However, I thought it was posted elsewhere here that either the manufacturer has arrangements with some company like Bus and Truck or has its representatives on site.

[BusHunter]

You would think the driver of #8124 would call in the bus, but he probably hated to give it up. I saw drivers on the #74 giving fist bumps, when doing their relief, so someone is happy to drive one of these, better to do it while it's cool. I've been noticing the buses have had their rear emergency roof hatches raised in the rear. I saw it on two or three buses. So at least that's one way to get some air. There probably going to shut it for this weekend though, there's supposed to be 90's coming. 

Edited August 13, 2015 by BusHunter

[sw4400]

Here's pictures of some new #8100's at Chicago.

#8124:

#8116:

#8119:

Unfortunately #8124 is probably going to be out of action for a few days. It was raining in the bus on it's first day in service!!  Embarrassing!! It was raining quite heavily too, the floor was all wet with a few small puddles. It was coming from right under the air conditioner in the front. The whole left side was dripping. I guess it's warranty time!! Question, CTA mechanics don't fix warranty stuff do they? Cause then the company loses money fixing a bo bus. They go to bus and truck for that?

I was also noticing on #8119, they have a rattling handicap seat on the left side. The forward facing one. It makes this weird vibration noise when the bus is moving. Kind of reminds me of the old #7500 Nabi's, the way they used to rattle. Maybe 3rd shift built the last 10 buses!!

I wonder how many stops the Novas make before beginning service...

Plattsburgh(Nova) to Chicago(CTA-South Shops)

Chicago(CTA-South Shops) to Chicago(Cummins N Power or Bus & Truck for touch ups)

But since the seating is done by Freedman Seating, do they stop at their production plant for installation and/or inspection? Or does Freedman ship the seats to Plattsburgh?

[Busjack]

I wonder how many stops the Novas make before beginning service...

Plattsburgh(Nova) to Chicago(CTA-South Shops)

Chicago(CTA-South Shops) to Chicago(Cummins N Power or Bus & Truck for touch ups)

But since the seating is done by Freedman Seating, do they stop at their production plant for installation and/or inspection? Or does Freedman ship the seats to Plattsburgh?

Obvious from the pictures in Nova's gallery* that the seats are shipped to Nova for installation.

However, you missed how many rest stops on the NY Northway and Thruway, Ohio Turnpike, etc.

*Lethbridge and St. John's.  at least, although the only interior shot of a CTA bus was the senator sitting on the driver's seat. Maybe you can see the seats through the windows in this picture.

[BusHunter]

The seats are installed in plattsburg. Probably just the buses that need attention from the arrival inspection go to Bus and Truck. Seems all the vendors are at south shops working on programming/tweaking the clever devices and final preparations like farebox installation. While the Clever devices may be there in Plattsburg they may not be programmed, but the destination signs are usually programmed so maybe they are.  So when something goes to the home garage and needs repair like #8124, does it go to south shops, bus and truck direct or is fixed at the home garage. The speed at which it's fixed might answer that question.