Red Line Extension (RLE)

[Busjack]

Back to the real topic. CTA Agenda items 6-9 are for various agreements related to the RLE.

[Rail Introvert]

https://chicago.urbanize.city/post/red-line-extension-receives-100-million-grant?utm_source=Urbanize+Newsletter&utm_campaign=234728e6d2-news-chicago-daily-2023-10-18&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_f2c8779a36-234728e6d2-199794280

[Nitro]

@Busjack @Sam92 Get ready for CBTC coming to Chicago on the Blue, Red, Orange, Purple, & Green lines because NY just did it.

[Busjack]

On 11/14/2023 at 5:28 PM, Nitro said:

@Busjack @Sam92 Get ready for CBTC coming to Chicago on the Blue, Red, Orange, Purple, & Green lines because NY just did it.

Again, you show you don't know Chicago, which has had a version of it since the 1980s, with various upgrades (the O'Hare branch was just upgraded).  That's how CTA Train Tracker works. I looked at the MTA site, and CTA has a central control center at 120 N. Racine, and is now replacing it with a new one at Pulaski and Lake.

In fact, it's sad how far MTA is behind the times on this, as its site says:

Quote

Our legacy signaling system relies on technology that dates back to the opening of the subway over 117 years ago. While we’ve made improvements to modernize our signals over the decades, the fundamentals remain unchanged.

The fundamentals changed in Chicago in about 1972, when cab signals were installed on all cars, and the last wayside block signals were finally eliminated around 1998.

[Nitro]

On 11/14/2023 at 7:59 PM, Busjack said:

Again, you show you don't know Chicago, which has had a version of it since the 1980s, with various upgrades (the O'Hare branch was just upgraded).  That's how CTA Train Tracker works. I looked at the MTA site, and CTA has a central control center at 120 N. Racine, and is now replacing it with a new one at Pulaski and Lake.

In fact, it's sad how far MTA is behind the times on this, as its site says:

The fundamentals changed in Chicago in about 1972, when cab signals were installed on all cars, and the last wayside block signals were finally eliminated around 1998.

Well the CTA is the second most funded agency next to the MTA. Despite what you believe get ready for it. Miami–Dade Transit & MARTA are doing it. LA Metro and WMATA are ready for it and you'll either take it or leave it in the upcoming years.

[Busjack]

2 hours ago, Nitro said:

Well the CTA is the second most funded agency next to the MTA. Despite what you believe get ready for it. Miami–Dade Transit & MARTA are doing it. LA Metro and WMATA are ready for it and you'll either take it or leave it in the upcoming years.

Somehow, you didn't comprehend that CTA ALREADY HAS IT. Go back and read my post.

You're also wrong about WMATA. It always had Automated Train Operation, but let it fall into disrepair, so they are updating it. NY is not installing ATO.

All you did is copy the MTA release and substitute Pink instead of F, etc.

Again, you obviously  don't know what you're talking about, but that doesn't seem to embarrass you.

And if you are such an authority on transit, there is the NYC Transit Forum. Maybe, as an expert on FRA regulations, you can explain there the obvious flaw in the description of the Interborough Express.

But one ride on the South Shore gives you no expertise on what the CTA needs.

[Busjack]

5 hours ago, Jstange059 said:

Upcoming virtual public meeting for the red line extension

Actually it isn't. It's for public transportation on 95th St.

[Jstange059]

Sorry, I got it on an email from the red line extension, and assumed it related to it

[Elkmn]

back on topic, why does the CTA want to end the RLE at 130th? It's just not a good idea to end the city's busiest line at a terminal located in a project? It seems like it's being built to not get used, and while Altgeld Gardens should be retained as a stop, it would be more beneficial to extend the line to somewhere like burnham or hegewisch where over 10% of people use transit to get to work, and where there's room for a bus terminal as well as a parking lot, 2 things terminals need. My idea is that the CTA already has asked for 3.8 billion and doesn't want to risk their luck asking for more.

[NewFlyerMCI]

13 minutes ago, Elkmn said:

back on topic, why does the CTA want to end the RLE at 130th? It's just not a good idea to end the city's busiest line at a terminal located in a project? It seems like it's being built to not get used, and while Altgeld Gardens should be retained as a stop, it would be more beneficial to extend the line to somewhere like burnham or hegewisch where over 10% of people use transit to get to work, and where there's room for a bus terminal as well as a parking lot, 2 things terminals need. My idea is that the CTA already has asked for 3.8 billion and doesn't want to risk their luck asking for more.

• Highly unlikely the stations would be located in areas in these places to maximize walkability, which means a parking garage is needed, along with more local bus routes and rerouting of existing ones
  • To the last point, if this has to happen, 130th is an ideal location to turn into a bus hub
• Burnham or Hegewisch, either way will require a river crossing, highly likely will require taking parkland and an expressway crossing. This balloons the price tag for not much benefit (RLE is already going thru 90% single unit detached homes)
• Hegewisch has SSL, which will be seeing more and faster trains before the year is out. Whether that should fall in line with CTA prices is a different matter.
• Burnham residents who are able to drive, will be able easily do so to 130th, and there's a chance Pace also restrucres service to give them a connection. And while it's circuitous, they can also drive to Hegewisch.
• The proposed location for 130th has plenty of space for garage and bus terminal

[Busjack]

26 minutes ago, Elkmn said:

It's just not a good idea to end the city's busiest line at a terminal located in a project?

Apparently you don't believe in "transit equity," which is the entire justification for this project. Among other things, the additional cost is minimal, compared to the $4B total, in that it is over vacant land at grade as opposed to on a concrete structure, and most south of 120th is for the new yard (replacing 98th). Update: See also what @NewFlyerMCI wrote while I was typing this.

26 minutes ago, Elkmn said:

it would be more beneficial to extend the line to somewhere like burnham or hegewisch where over 10% of people use transit to get to work,

What you cited proved the opposite. With regard to Burnham, the page says it has a total population of about 4,000. Then the question is how many families is that, and then 90% are excluded. I suppose Pace 358 adequately serves them, and also many work locally or in Indiana. Similarly, when Ford Chicago employees are interviewed, most are from Indiana.

In effect:

• This kind of speculation was what eventually killed the Gray Line (instead of just using the existing Kensington service, why not extend it to Hegwisch)?
• You said that you were not going to play with maps re NICTD or Metra service to Hegewisch.. I don't think you are keeping your word by proposing a $2 B (my estimate) extension of CTA there. Why are you so obsessed with Hegewisch? Maybe the people live there because they work in the steel mills and Ford plant.

[Elkmn]

Yeah I should probably just like stay out of discussions on south side transit in general I have near zero experience with it and my north side ideas don't apply for the south side. I mean, having transit for altgeld gardens at the end of the day will be best for a lower income area and even if it's a purely residential area it'll still have use, and I'll be honest, a lot of my information is from street view, which means that I will not be having any more takes on the RLE and I will stop coming up with goofy schemes for better transit in hegewisch.

[NewFlyerMCI]

2 minutes ago, Elkmn said:

Yeah I should probably just like stay out of discussions on south side transit in general I have near zero experience with it and my north side ideas don't apply for the south side. I mean, having transit for altgeld gardens at the end of the day will be best for a lower income area and even if it's a purely residential area it'll still have use, and I'll be honest, a lot of my information is from street view, which means that I will not be having any more takes on the RLE and I will stop coming up with goofy schemes for better transit in hegewisch.

I think what trips a lot of people up, is that the south side, and south of 95th in particular, doesn't need a lot of improvements from the service planning side. The merits of a 107th bus can be debated, Hegewisch having adequate transit can be debated (FWIW, I think it could be better), but what CTA has done over time is optimize bus routes to get folks where they need to go the majority of the time (see new 111/115, new 95, new 111A, etc.)

The biggest benefit for these riders at this point would be A) frequency improvements where necessary and B) fare integration with Metra, and neither of these things require changing the lines on the paper.

[Elkmn]

Yeah, as a toddler, I'd study the map a lot and get confused as to why there wasn't a bus on 83rd, 91st, 99th, 107th etc, but I realize now, later in life, there was no purpose for some routes, (except for the 83rd street bus, I still think 83rd should have a bus in some areas). Regardless of what area, metra should've had fare integration since the Chicago Card at least and no matter how much money ventra validators and TVMs cost, it'll be more than worth it for everyone and will undoutebly improve ridership for all agencies.

[Busjack]

16 minutes ago, NewFlyerMCI said:

The biggest benefit for these riders at this point would be A) frequency improvements where necessary and B) fare integration with Metra, and neither of these things require changing the lines on the paper.

Again, CTA's main justification is that it takes maybe a 30-minute bus ride just to get to 95th, plus whatever the time it takes to get to where you are going. I don't think 34 and 119 can be fixed to take care of that problem. There was once an express bus via I-94, but that died.

As often discussed, fare integration might help, but with the low frequency of ME Kensington and Blue Island services and the ME not directly connecting with the L system, it won't get you much

[artthouwill]

8 minutes ago, Busjack said:

 

I thought that they said something about Argyle having a Foster entrance (maybe that was temporary), and, in any event, the platforms need to meet the 10-car standard and have room for an elevator.

I don't recall seeing this mentioned in regards to the RLE  but would seem applicable here as well with the four new stations. 

[Busjack]

10 minutes ago, artthouwill said:

I don't recall seeing this mentioned in regards to the RLE  but would seem applicable here as well with the four new stations. 

I don't think the design of RLE is that far along, but they certainly won't be cutting cars at 95th.😷

[Busjack]

In a Lynn Sweet column, it's stated that Cong. Quigley has sped up allocations for RLE:

Quote

Already, Quigley and his fellow Illinois Democrats have persuaded the Biden administration to speed up federal funding to extend the CTA’s Red Line from its current terminus at 95th Street to the city limits at 130th Street. Instead of receiving $350 million for the 5.6-mile extension during the first year of the full-funding agreement, the CTA will get $746 million. That will save the city $213 million in financing costs over the life of the 10-year agreement.

 

[Busjack]

As Robin might have said to Batman, "Holy Cost Increase!" Sun-Times: CTA approves Red Line Extension contracts as estimated cost balloons to $5.3 billion, as compared to prior estimates of about $3.6 billion.  As Illinois U.S Senator Everett Dirksen reputedly said, "“A billion here, a billion there, and pretty soon you're talking real money." At least here, we're getting a Red Line.

[jajuan]

On 8/14/2024 at 8:48 PM, Busjack said:

As Robin might have said to Batman, "Holy Cost Increase!" Sun-Times: CTA approves Red Line Extension contracts as estimated cost balloons to $5.3 billion, as compared to prior estimates of about $3.6 billion.  As Illinois U.S Senator Everett Dirksen reputedly said, "“A billion here, a billion there, and pretty soon you're talking real money." At least here, we're getting a Red Line.

I saw the same update. The project was stuck with consultants for so long before finally getting off the ground and becoming a reality, that I actually would have been surprised if the cost didn't increase significantly.