Red Line Extension (RLE)

[strictures]

2 hours ago, Busjack said:

Groundbreaking for RLE  at 115th (ABC7)

And if that fool & incompetent Richie Daley had followed his own father's plan from the mid-1960s, instead of this multi-billion dollar plan, we would've had the CTA trains using two unneeded freight tracks on the then ten track IC Mainline by going over the St. Charles Airline to the IC Mainline at 15th St, then south it the Kensington Station at 115th St, for a fraction of the cost & then the CTA's South Side Mainline was to be demolished. All of that was to happen after the Dan Ryan Line was completed & opened!

[Busjack]

37 minutes ago, strictures said:

And if that fool & incompetent Richie Daley had followed his own father's plan from the mid-1960s, instead of this multi-billion dollar plan, we would've had the CTA trains using two unneeded freight tracks on the then ten track IC Mainline by going over the St. Charles Airline to the IC Mainline at 15th St, then south it the Kensington Station at 115th St, for a fraction of the cost & then the CTA's South Side Mainline was to be demolished. All of that was to happen after the Dan Ryan Line was completed & opened!

Iz your name Mike Payne?

[artthouwill]

1 hour ago, strictures said:

And if that fool & incompetent Richie Daley had followed his own father's plan from the mid-1960s, instead of this multi-billion dollar plan, we would've had the CTA trains using two unneeded freight tracks on the then ten track IC Mainline by going over the St. Charles Airline to the IC Mainline at 15th St, then south it the Kensington Station at 115th St, for a fraction of the cost & then the CTA's South Side Mainline was to be demolished. All of that was to happen after the Dan Ryan Line was completed & opened!

Didn't we discuss this before?

I disagree with a fraction of the costs.  Atatiins still would have been needed to be built.  Then there's the question of what would happen to the South Chicago branch of the IC?  Would it have remained with the IC or would CTA had to replace and rebuild the entire branch?    Apparently the community wanted the SSM  to remain intact.  Also Amtrak uses those freight tracks for service to Champaign, Carbondale, and New Orleans.   Also it seems like extending the line to 130th was part of the original plan when the Dan Ryan was built  but for some reasons  the line was only built to 95th.  

Meanwhile I hope you don't suggest turning me ME into some Gray/Gold Line proposal. 

[Busjack]

21 minutes ago, artthouwill said:

Didn't we discuss this before?

That's what I meant by

1 hour ago, Busjack said:

Iz your name Mike Payne?

He's just going rouge derrier on something that may have been one of dozens to transit proposals made 50-70 years ago, and like Payne, was argued to its death about 10 years ago. I agree with Brandon Johnson it is time to move on. 

Maybe he still has some PCC streetcars to rebuild to cover his proposed line, as apparently CRRC can't cover it. But I guess that was that Dummy Rahm Emanuel, who still thinks he can be President.

[strictures]

2 hours ago, artthouwill said:

Didn't we discuss this before?

I disagree with a fraction of the costs.  Atatiins still would have been needed to be built.  Then there's the question of what would happen to the South Chicago branch of the IC?  Would it have remained with the IC or would CTA had to replace and rebuild the entire branch?    Apparently the community wanted the SSM  to remain intact.  Also Amtrak uses those freight tracks for service to Champaign, Carbondale, and New Orleans.   Also it seems like extending the line to 130th was part of the original plan when the Dan Ryan was built  but for some reasons  the line was only built to 95th.  

Meanwhile I hope you don't suggest turning me ME into some Gray/Gold Line proposal. 

The IC Mainline extension  had nothing to do with that Gray Line foolishness.  it was going to use standard CTA cars, probably the same as the new 2200s just ordered.  The problem with extending the Dan Ryan Line past 95th was that the wide median disappears when the Calumet Expwy turns south & that wide the median is no longer there, just a metal Armco type barrier wall at about 100th St, south to the end of it.  There was never a plan to go there.  The IC Mainline was four electrified commuter tracks, two diesel long distance passenger tracks & four freight tracks, the widest rail mainline on earth. It all hinged on the IC Mainline being used, as they were going to take over two of the IC's freight tracks, as the IC was slowly getting rid of the huge Chicago freight yard at the river, since little freight traffic was being transferred from lake boats to freight cars then.  Now that yard is totally gone, replaced by parkland & tall buildings.  No matter what the community wanted, the SSM was to be history, as it was still a old fashioned hill & dale system from when it started as a steam drawn system & the steam trains need those downhill tracks to be able to get up some speed & then pull the cars up to the stations, all about a quarter mile apart, then electrified by Frank Sprague, the inventor of multiple unit controls.  Plus it's never more than a mile from the Dan Ryan.  Then the IC was to close a lot of its stations, leaving only the really important ones, like 23rd at McCormick Place, 29th at Michael Reese hospital, 59th at the University of Chicago, then 79th & a couple more until Kensington. I remember seeing its plans on the front pages of the newspapers then.  

My guess is that the expanding war in Viet Nam sucked away the federal money to build it! 

[Sam92]

3 hours ago, strictures said:

The IC Mainline extension  had nothing to do with that Gray Line foolishness.  it was going to use standard CTA cars, probably the same as the new 2200s just ordered.  The problem with extending the Dan Ryan Line past 95th was that the wide median disappears when the Calumet Expwy turns south & that wide the median is no longer there, just a metal Armco type barrier wall at about 100th St, south to the end of it.  There was never a plan to go there.  The IC Mainline was four electrified commuter tracks, two diesel long distance passenger tracks & four freight tracks, the widest rail mainline on earth. It all hinged on the IC Mainline being used, as they were going to take over two of the IC's freight tracks, as the IC was slowly getting rid of the huge Chicago freight yard at the river, since little freight traffic was being transferred from lake boats to freight cars then.  Now that yard is totally gone, replaced by parkland & tall buildings.  No matter what the community wanted, the SSM was to be history, as it was still a old fashioned hill & dale system from when it started as a steam drawn system & the steam trains need those downhill tracks to be able to get up some speed & then pull the cars up to the stations, all about a quarter mile apart, then electrified by Frank Sprague, the inventor of multiple unit controls.  Plus it's never more than a mile from the Dan Ryan.  Then the IC was to close a lot of its stations, leaving only the really important ones, like 23rd at McCormick Place, 29th at Michael Reese hospital, 59th at the University of Chicago, then 79th & a couple more until Kensington. I remember seeing its plans on the front pages of the newspapers then.  

My guess is that the expanding war in Viet Nam sucked away the federal money to build it! 

If you read the history then you would know that it was always intended to go south of 95th but was mixed. First was split branches via I-57 to Blue Island and a branch towards 103rd/Stony (or 108th?).  If the communication didn't want the SSM gone obviously that stopped it from being demolished unless politicians want to end their career. Also why do people forget how far east the IC is compared to the red line along with the lack of connectivity to the rest of the system? You're basically saying let's trade a centrally aligned extension that can get people from Roseland to Evanston along with free transfers seamless transfers to the rest of the system and trade it for a route that favors people going east and makes people take long walks to other lines. Money saved is money for other improvements 

[Busjack]

12 hours ago, strictures said:

There was never a plan to go there. 

That's a LIE. If you look at chicago-l.org, there was a plan for a terminal station at the east side of 103rd and Doty (approximately where the 103rd Garage now is), thinking that commuters would get out of their cars there.

In the Alternatives Analysis stage, there was an alternative to continue down the east side of the Bishop Nissan Expressway to about 115th, but that was rejected, basically because it would only serve the several Mounts Trashmore. This selected alternative at least has the potential for TOD.

I don't know if the FRA requirement applied at the time or when the Orange Line was built, but even @nitro will tell you that, unless you believe in time travel, you can't put 2200 series cars on IC or CN property. ESPECIALLY after the wreck at 27th St. when the Pullmans crushed the Highliners.

And if tou really thought this was an alternative, you should have gone to the Alternatives Analysis hearings, but I guess the 22 and 22A (or 24 depending on your time travel) buses were too slow for you. Maybe Scottie could have beamed you up.

Do something about your strange fantasies.

[strictures]

20 hours ago, Busjack said:

That's a LIE. If you look at chicago-l.org, there was a plan for a terminal station at the east side of 103rd and Doty (approximately where the 103rd Garage now is), thinking that commuters would get out of their cars there.

In the Alternatives Analysis stage, there was an alternative to continue down the east side of the Bishop Nissan Expressway to about 115th, but that was rejected, basically because it would only serve the several Mounts Trashmore. This selected alternative at least has the potential for TOD.

I don't know if the FRA requirement applied at the time or when the Orange Line was built, but even @nitro will tell you that, unless you believe in time travel, you can't put 2200 series cars on IC or CN property. ESPECIALLY after the wreck at 27th St. when the Pullmans crushed the Highliners.

And if tou really thought this was an alternative, you should have gone to the Alternatives Analysis hearings, but I guess the 22 and 22A (or 24 depending on your time travel) buses were too slow for you. Maybe Scottie could have beamed you up.

Do something about your strange fantasies.

No one was putting 2200s on the IC.  Those two tracks were to be totally turned over to the CTA & run as normal CTA rail with a third rail & the usual CTA station setups!

It was to be a similar setup where the CTA raised up the Lake St L from grade to the C&NW right of way west of Laramie.  Zero connections between the CTA & C&NW, with a high chain link fence separating the two services.

There was never going to be a cross connection with the IC Commuter trains, as they would be separated by the two IC freight tracks between them, again with a high chain link fence separating the CTA operations from the IC operation & zero capability of any switches!

So stop making up crap!

[artthouwill]

2 hours ago, strictures said:

No one was putting 2200s on the IC.  Those two tracks were to be totally turned over to the CTA & run as normal CTA rail with a third rail & the usual CTA station setups!

It was to be a similar setup where the CTA raised up the Lake St L from grade to the C&NW right of way west of Laramie.  Zero connections between the CTA & C&NW, with a high chain link fence separating the two services.

There was never going to be a cross connection with the IC Commuter trains, as they would be separated by the two IC freight tracks between them, again with a high chain link fence separating the CTA operations from the IC operation & zero capability of any switches!

So stop making up crap!

Bottom line is that whatever that plan was,  it never happened.   What IS happening is CTA is moving forward with a plan to build the Red Line Extension from 95th to 130th slated for completion in 2030.  What IS also happening is Metra moves forward with rebuilding Metra Electric stations between 75th ( Grand Crossing) and 111th ( Pullman) with 79th ( Chathàm) and 103rd ( Rosemoor) already completed.    

Also there's TOD around the Green Line  at Cottage Grove  and at 43rd.  A new University of Chicago/,Kennedy King College Nursing school building is supposed to be built next to the Garfield Green Line station.    Though I have stated that I thought the Obama Presidential Center should have been built there instead, the fact is its built in Jackson Park so there's no need to harp on it anymore.   

The people in Roseland and the Far South Side wanted this Extension.   It's only fair that the Red Line gets extended to 130th which is still in the city limits.  Why do these people have to take a 20 to 30 minute bus ride to get to the L when residents of Evanston,  Wilmette,  Skokie,  Oak Park, Forest Park,  Park Ridge, and Cicero have better access to CTA rail service? 

[Busjack]

3 hours ago, strictures said:

So stop making up crap!

Look who's talking. Especially the person who said there was no plan to go east in the median of the Calumet Expressway connector to 103rd and Doty.

Also, as I said before, you seem to be living in 1971. ``There have been innumerable transit plans in the past 55 years. I don't see why you misrepresented one and think it is still viable.

All you want to do is rant. I'm not going to take your bait any longer. I took too much already.

[Javi75]

Regarding the fact that the red lines going to demand more railcars for the extension, what can cta do to avoid a fleet shortage on the red line? I thought about cta transferring 50 5000s from green to red shortening train consists down to 4 car operation full time to avoid cutting too many runs. Taking 20 cars from the purple line taking away roughly three runs off purple & the blue line giving up its 5000s rush hour runs from the pink line to get those cars back over to red. Could the green line realizable operate at peak rush with 4 car operation?

[Bus1883]

26 minutes ago, Javi75 said:

Regarding the fact that the red lines going to demand more railcars for the extension, what can cta do to avoid a fleet shortage on the red line? I thought about cta transferring 50 5000s from green to red shortening train consists down to 4 car operation full time to avoid cutting too many runs. Taking 20 cars from the purple line taking away roughly three runs off purple & the blue line giving up its 5000s rush hour runs from the pink line to get those cars back over to red. Could the green line realizable operate at peak rush with 4 car operation?

Supposedly as far as I can remember the pink and green is to get rid of all their 5000s to RLE if they pick up 7000s

[Busjack]

20 minutes ago, Bus1883 said:

Supposedly as far as I can remember the pink and green is to get rid of all their 5000s to RLE if they pick up 7000s

Never said officially and since there have not been any 7000s delivered recently and the posted RFP for consultants for 9000s had a delivery schedule for something like 2033, something like what @Javi75 said is in play.

[artthouwill]

2 hours ago, Javi75 said:

Regarding the fact that the red lines going to demand more railcars for the extension, what can cta do to avoid a fleet shortage on the red line? I thought about cta transferring 50 5000s from green to red shortening train consists down to 4 car operation full time to avoid cutting too many runs. Taking 20 cars from the purple line taking away roughly three runs off purple & the blue line giving up its 5000s rush hour runs from the pink line to get those cars back over to red. Could the green line realizable operate at peak rush with 4 car operation?

I haven't done rush hour recently on the Green.   I think the South Side Green could get away with 4 cars during rush hour.    I'm not so sure about the West Side Green  unless crush loads are okay .  But I would think that the 3200s wouldn't be retired until the 9000s arrived.   Maybe by the time the RLE opens in 4 years ( maybe 5 years)  *CTA will exercise  an option for 7000s.  Hopefully it doesn't take 4 years to finish the last 148 cars of the base order.

[Busjack]

2 hours ago, artthouwill said:

But I would think that the 3200s wouldn't be retired until the 9000s arrived.   Maybe by the time the RLE opens in 4 years ( maybe 5 years)  *CTA will exercise  an option for 7000s.  Hopefully it doesn't take 4 years to finish the last 148 cars of the base order.

But the rub is that even if CTA keeps the 3200s until 2034 , it will need maybe 84 more cars in 2030 to run RLE. 

Assuming the counts before 3200s were transferred to the Blue Line, Brown had about 146 3200s and Midway had about 110 3200s and 100 2600s. So even if you assumed CRRC produced the owed 148 cars, if it pulls 5000s from the Pink and Green lines, it would still have to retain 2600s to fill about 40% of the need there. That's why I fear that @Javi75 is on track.

[Sam92]

1 hour ago, Busjack said:

But the rub is that even if CTA keeps the 3200s until 2034 , it will need maybe 84 more cars in 2030 to run RLE. 

Assuming the counts before 3200s were transferred to the Blue Line, Brown had about 146 3200s and Midway had about 110 3200s and 100 2600s. So even if you assumed CRRC produced the owed 148 cars, if it pulls 5000s from the Pink and Green lines, it would still have to retain 2600s to fill about 40% of the need there. That's why I fear that @Javi75 is on track.

Isn't the 84 cars a precovid prediction? If I'm not mistaken the peak hour sets the cost of the system and the headways are 4 min vs 2 precovid, so maybe 50-60 extra needed?

[Sam92]

6 hours ago, Javi75 said:

Regarding the fact that the red lines going to demand more railcars for the extension, what can cta do to avoid a fleet shortage on the red line? I thought about cta transferring 50 5000s from green to red shortening train consists down to 4 car operation full time to avoid cutting too many runs. Taking 20 cars from the purple line taking away roughly three runs off purple & the blue line giving up its 5000s rush hour runs from the pink line to get those cars back over to red. Could the green line realizable operate at peak rush with 4 car operation?

 

3 hours ago, artthouwill said:

I haven't done rush hour recently on the Green.   I think the South Side Green could get away with 4 cars during rush hour.    I'm not so sure about the West Side Green  unless crush loads are okay .  But I would think that the 3200s wouldn't be retired until the 9000s arrived.   Maybe by the time the RLE opens in 4 years ( maybe 5 years)  *CTA will exercise  an option for 7000s.  Hopefully it doesn't take 4 years to finish the last 148 cars of the base order.

South Green can handle 4 cars but Lake street?  That's pushing it especially considering a lot of people are giving up on the Forest Park branch in favor of the Green Line. 

[Busjack]

11 hours ago, Sam92 said:

Isn't the 84 cars a precovid prediction? If I'm not mistaken the peak hour sets the cost of the system and the headways are 4 min vs 2 precovid, so maybe 50-60 extra needed?

The whole point of the bailout was to get to pre-Covid capacity so your point is irrelevant to CTA planners. 

[wayfaringrob]

16 hours ago, Busjack said:

But the rub is that even if CTA keeps the 3200s until 2034 , it will need maybe 84 more cars in 2030 to run RLE. 

Assuming the counts before 3200s were transferred to the Blue Line, Brown had about 146 3200s and Midway had about 110 3200s and 100 2600s. So even if you assumed CRRC produced the owed 148 cars, if it pulls 5000s from the Pink and Green lines, it would still have to retain 2600s to fill about 40% of the need there. That's why I fear that @Javi75 is on track.

Remember that CTA is holding onto way more 2600s than it needs, and that they also have budgeted for overhauls of the 3200s and a few hundred (a hundred?) 2600s. This is presumably in case it doesn't get enough new cars any time soon. My assumption is that these will return to service on one line or another, filling the need for the expansion cars until the actual expansion cars can arrive.

[wayfaringrob]

3 hours ago, Busjack said:

The whole point of the bailout was to get to pre-Covid capacity so your point is irrelevant to CTA planners. 

Post-pandemic planning--even with money--is less rush-hour oriented and focused on consistent and frequent service throughout the day. Surely, there is still a rush hour, but with shallower peaks and valleys. Therefore a smaller number of cars is theoretically needed.

[Busjack]

40 minutes ago, wayfaringrob said:

Post-pandemic planning--even with money--is less rush-hour oriented and focused on consistent and frequent service throughout the day. Surely, there is still a rush hour, but with shallower peaks and valleys. Therefore a smaller number of cars is theoretically needed.

Not necessarily. Maybe rush goes from 3 to 4 minutes, but, conversely more wear and tear is occurring midday, and hence a larger repair reserve is needed. See what's happening now with the buses..

[Sam92]

1 hour ago, Busjack said:

Not necessarily. Maybe rush goes from 3 to 4 minutes, but, conversely more wear and tear is occurring midday, and hence a larger repair reserve is needed. See what's happening now with the buses..

Ahh so more frequent midday means you still need the same spare ratio to accommodate the extra wear and tear gotcha

[pudgym29]

Could the Lake St. leg of the Green Line get by with six-car trains? 🧐

[Elkmn]

1 hour ago, pudgym29 said:

Could the Lake St. leg of the Green Line get by with six-car trains? 🧐

Did you mean to pick this topic lmao

[artthouwill]

19 hours ago, Elkmn said:

Did you mean to pick this topic lmao

Maybe he meant 4 car trains as it relates to equipping enough cars for the RLE.  We all know the Green Line currently * and has been) running six car trains.