More New Flyers

[jajuan]

Indeed the wider rear door serves its purpose. Some routes once on campus are free to the public to ride, so both rear and front doors allow passengers to board and alight, slightly improving boarding times. I personally like the rear window on some of the older New Flyers, though no particular reason why.

P.S. It is certainly good to be back in Chicago! While I was on the Red Line headed home yesterday, I saw 4316 headed south on the Ryan a little south of 87th Street with a "Not In Service" sign. Didn't catch the run number.

Hmm now that's interesting. It's quite a change from the one year back in the 90s I lived in Champaign. At that time they had just recently gotten their first New Flyers and those weren't completely controlled from the front by the driver as those today seem to be from what you say about boarding through the rear. The only thing the driver could do was close them along with the front doors as the rear ones remained open once a passenger disembarking from the rear pushed them open by those 'Easy Out' handles one would recognize on a CTA bus that predates the current New Flyers here. They also still had a boatload of Flxible Grumman models along with their last few Fishbowls that were used only on a couple of Campus Routes. So they weren't at that point of allow rear boarding like you mention they can do today. What a change the years bring.

[Guest]

I have to question if it will happen with Forest Glen because of what I remember of that garage's layout makes it hard to see how it would have the space even with an upgrade making it artic capable, and CTA5750 pretty much backed that up in a post a couple months ago on this. The land around that garage has been getting eaten up fast with new real estate expansions on the residential and commercial sides from what other's have reported about that area, so that garage couldn't even get extra land to expand in addition to what upgrades are needed to house artics if it wanted to.

In addition, FG would have to build a new repair facility. The current building is not equiipped with the proper lifts for 60ft buses and there is no room to make any upgrades to it. I really dont know how CTA will pull this off if they are serious about assigning artics there. FG is the smallest garage in the system and it will remain that unless a new facility is planned.

[BusHunter]

They're supposed to get all 33 hybrids for the J14. Someone else said they say 4333 at 103rd. I think 4315 as well....

They should at least get enough to displace the #4058-#4069 buses. The question is will they wrap them. The J14 is presently more suited for the older buses now, which doesn't seem to be there intention. NP currently has 112 artics, that's almost half the garage, there somewhere in the 258-270 total buses count. If they transfer off all the artics to existing artic garages, there going to have four heavily artic garages. There going to have to go with 77th to ease that, until they can get some more garages compatible. Hopefully they can get this done by the time the next batch comes maybe as early as May 2013, or things will be getting really ridiculous.

[jajuan]

They should at least get enough to displace the #4058-#4069 buses. The question is will they wrap them. The J14 is presently more suited for the older buses now, which doesn't seem to be there intention. NP currently has 112 artics, that's almost half the garage, there somewhere in the 258-270 total buses count. If they transfer off all the artics to existing artic garages, there going to have four heavily artic garages. There going to have to go with 77th to ease that, until they can get some more garages compatible. Hopefully they can get this done by the time the next batch comes maybe as early as May 2013, or things will be getting really ridiculous.

Which is why I made the point more than once that they should be concentrating on new artic assignments favoring 77th more for the time being until they do get more garages artic compatible. Where are they supposed to house all those articulated buses otherwise? I mean you have to take into consideration that there are two express routes gone between North Park and Kedzie that begs the question of why either would need more. They solved that in part by killing garage sharing on any one express route among what's left after killing 144 and 145, but still the number at NP now is getting beyond crazy.

[nflyer22]

It was most likely a 192 deadheading back to 103rd garge or depending on the time you saw the bush it could've also been a 26.

I saw it a little after 9:30 AM. My mistake for not mentioning the time earlier.

Hmm now that's interesting. It's quite a change from the one year back in the 90s I lived in Champaign. At that time they had just recently gotten their first New Flyers and those weren't completely controlled from the front by the driver as those today seem to be from what you say about boarding through the rear. The only thing the driver could do was close them along with the front doors as the rear ones remained open once a passenger disembarking from the rear pushed them open by those 'Easy Out' handles one would recognize on a CTA bus that predates the current New Flyers here. They also still had a boatload of Flxible Grumman models along with their last few Fishbowls that were used only on a couple of Campus Routes. So they weren't at that point of allow rear boarding like you mention they can do today. What a change the years bring.

I should make a clarification to my previous post: many drivers still only 'unlock' the door, where the green light will turn on, but for the rear door to open the customer has to push on the easy-out handle. It's kinda annoying for those students (many times myself included) waiting for the rear door to open on a bus, but no one exits, having to walk up to the front to board.

Out of curiosity do you remember the series of those first New Flyers that were coming in? Some 9600s/9700s of the CUMTD are still out and about, but they are set to be retired with the pending delivery of those 40 ft Xcelsiors.

[cta5658]

They should at least get enough to displace the #4058-#4069 buses. The question is will they wrap them. The J14 is presently more suited for the older buses now, which doesn't seem to be there intention. NP currently has 112 artics, that's almost half the garage, there somewhere in the 258-270 total buses count. If they transfer off all the artics to existing artic garages, there going to have four heavily artic garages. There going to have to go with 77th to ease that, until they can get some more garages compatible. Hopefully they can get this done by the time the next batch comes maybe as early as May 2013, or things will be getting really ridiculous.

when 103rd gets enough, which garage will #4058-#4069 go to?

[jajuan]

when 103rd gets enough, which garage will #4058-#4069 go to?

That's the point, there's nowhere they can go unless CTA at least gets serious about placing artics back at 77th. They could have easily placed the 4070s there instead of cramming them in North Park to account for displaced Novas.

[jajuan]

I saw it a little after 9:30 AM. My mistake for not mentioning the time earlier.

I should make a clarification to my previous post: many drivers still only 'unlock' the door, where the green light will turn on, but for the rear door to open the customer has to push on the easy-out handle. It's kinda annoying for those students (many times myself included) waiting for the rear door to open on a bus, but no one exits, having to walk up to the front to board.

Out of curiosity do you remember the series of those first New Flyers that were coming in? Some 9600s/9700s of the CUMTD are still out and about, but they are set to be retired with the pending delivery of those 40 ft Xcelsiors.

As I recall, I believe CUMTD had them numbered under the 3700 series block as they did their 30 foot Flxibles. They were among the last order of buses CUMTD got before switching to numbering their buses by year of delivery.

[Jos Callinet]

Does anyone know why the CTA hasn't simply continued the numbering sequence of this newest group of New Flyer artics from where the last of the previous group ended - at 4207 - so that the first of these new ones would be 4208 - rather than beginning a new series at 4300?

Why this break in the numbering sequence?

A related question - why is the CTA buying a mix of hybrids and clean diesels? Is the CTA having issues with the performance of the existing hybrid artics? Are "clean diesels" considered as "clean" and "efficient" and "fuel-saving" as the hybrids?

[sw4400]

Does anyone know why the CTA hasn't simply continued the numbering sequence of this newest group of New Flyer artics from where the last of the previous group ended - at 4207 - so that the first of these new ones would be 4208 - rather than beginning a new series at 4300?

Why this break in the numbering sequence?

Well first and foremost is the model years. 4000-4207 are 2008-2009 models and 4300-4399 are 2012-2013 models. The other reason is models themselves... 4000-4207 are DE60LF's and 4300-4399 are DE60LFR's and D60LFR's.

A related question - why is the CTA buying a mix of hybrids and clean diesels? Is the CTA having issues with the performance of the existing hybrid artics? Are "clean diesels" considered as "clean" and "efficient" and "fuel-saving" as the hybrids?

This isn't their initial order, Jos. This was a piggybacked order the CTA got from Seattle Metro. This order for 33 Hybrids and 67 Clean Diesel buses were set by them. The only thing here is the order was built and put into CTA livery. The order for 325 40' buses and 100 60' buses are an order the CTA placed themselves. I imagine sometime between January and April, 2013 we will find out what manufacturer(s) have won the contracts for these buses. It is reportedly New Flyer and NOVA Bus that are the front runners for it.

[nflyer22]

As I recall, I believe CUMTD had them numbered under the 3700 series block as they did their 30 foot Flxibles. They were among the last order of buses CUMTD got before switching to numbering their buses by year of delivery.

Ahh, I knew I saw a pattern among the bus numbering; initially I found it awkward and wondered why the numbering seemed all over the place. The last 3700s, according to CUMTD's Flickr page, seemed to have bit the dust back in 2007.

[jajuan]

Ahh, I knew I saw a pattern among the bus numbering; initially I found it awkward and wondered why the numbering seemed all over the place. The last 3700s, according to CUMTD's Flickr page, seemed to have bit the dust back in 2007.

Yeah. Under their current numbering system, the first two digits of the vehicle number signifies year of delivery.

[Jos Callinet]

Well first and foremost is the model years. 4000-4207 are 2008-2009 models and 4300-4399 are 2012-2013 models. The other reason is models themselves... 4000-4207 are DE60LF's and 4300-4399 are DE60LFR's and D60LFR's.

This isn't their initial order, Jos. This was a piggybacked order the CTA got from Seattle Metro. This order for 33 Hybrids and 67 Clean Diesel buses were set by them. The only thing here is the order was built and put into CTA livery. The order for 325 40' buses and 100 60' buses are an order the CTA placed themselves. I imagine sometime between January and April, 2013 we will find out what manufacturer(s) have won the contracts for these buses. It is reportedly New Flyer and NOVA Bus that are the front runners for it.

Thank you, sw4400 - you've been most helpful clearing these mysteries up for me.

[Busjack]

Thank you, sw4400 - you've been most helpful clearing these mysteries up for me.

Except he didn't answer the second.

The reason why they got 33 hybrids is that the federal grant was for 33 hybrids.

The 67 others were not explained, except that they are about $175,000 cheaper than a hybrid. I originally thought that CTA was so green that it wouldn't go back to diesel, except it appears that it needed 100 buses, and at the comparative prices would have received 50 instead of 67.

Similarly, the requisition for 50-150 artics along with some 40 foot buses doesn't specify how many are hybrid or diesel, although there are some hints in there (such as 3 door option on hybrids) that CTA might think that hybrids are for express or BRT. But I wouldn't put that much into that.

[geneking7320]

I am curious;

Has CTA "ground the numbers" to determine which type of bus is more economical, the hybrid or non-hybrid? I am thinking of over the 12 year depreciation life of a transit bus.

Gene King

[Busjack]

I am curious;

Has CTA "ground the numbers" to determine which type of bus is more economical, the hybrid or non-hybrid? I am thinking of over the 12 year depreciation life of a transit bus.

Gene King

That's a good question, and I tend to doubt it.

Obviously, a bus would have to save about $15,000 a year in fuel (and that probably has to be discounted to present value) to break even. Conventional buses get about 3.4 miles per gallon, and diesel is about $3.20 a gallon (tax exempt), and most of the buses have a reported service life of 500,000 miles, so I suppose you could do the math to see how much the mpg has to go up to come out ahead.

But, in these instances, you would have to figure in (1) how much CTA supposedly saved by picking up Seattle options and getting a deal (supposedly $800,000 a bus compared to $880,000 if they bid it out, according to President's Reports) on 4000-4149, especially since they didn't disclose at that time that the buses were needed pronto to replace the NABIs, and (2) as I noted above, the $30 million grant was for hybrids. Also, based on past Financial Reports, Karen Walker was not too concerned, until the past 3 or 4 months, about CTA being on the wrong side of a fuel hedge.

[BusHunter]

Which is why I made the point more than once that they should be concentrating on new artic assignments favoring 77th more for the time being until they do get more garages artic compatible. Where are they supposed to house all those articulated buses otherwise? I mean you have to take into consideration that there are two express routes gone between North Park and Kedzie that begs the question of why either would need more. They solved that in part by killing garage sharing on any one express route among what's left after killing 144 and 145, but still the number at NP now is getting beyond crazy.

I don't know why they didn't send the #4070's to 77th either. It would probably make more sense to send them a small fleet of #4000's and #4300's. BTW, I looked at the seating assignment again on the #4300's and I was right, there is a difference in seat assignment versus the #4000's. All the #4000's only have eight seats before the middle axle on both sides. (16 total, 6 transverse and a single 2x2 seat both sides ) The #4300's have 3 transverse, and five sets of 2x2 seats on the left and 3 transverse and four sets of 2x2 seats on the right for a total of 24 seats before the middle axle. Grand total 64 seats versus 56 on the other model. Also I was surprised to see #4333 already in service on the #J14 last night. So it looks like they have 18 in service now. (#4300-16, #4333)

[BusHunter]

That's a good question, and I tend to doubt it.

Obviously, a bus would have to save about $15,000 a year in fuel (and that probably has to be discounted to present value) to break even. Conventional buses get about 3.4 miles per gallon, and diesel is about $3.20 a gallon (tax exempt), and most of the buses have a reported service life of 500,000 miles, so I suppose you could do the math to see how much the mpg has to go up to come out ahead.

But, in these instances, you would have to figure in (1) how much CTA supposedly saved by picking up Seattle options and getting a deal (supposedly $800,000 a bus compared to $880,000 if they bid it out, according to President's Reports) on 4000-4149, especially since they didn't disclose at that time that the buses were needed pronto to replace the NABIs, and (2) as I noted above, the $30 million grant was for hybrids. Also, based on past Financial Reports, Karen Walker was not too concerned, until the past 3 or 4 months, about CTA being on the wrong side of a fuel hedge.

They obviously needed a quick bus purchase to help deal with the Ryan coming up and this was it. 6 months and you have new buses. Where this other order will take upwards of a year to fill. I think getting the diesels is just because it was part of the contract and couldn't be changed.

[cta5658]

which route is #4333 on now?

[dann]

Similarly, the requisition for 50-150 artics along with some 40 foot buses doesn't specify how many are hybrid or diesel, although there are some hints in there (such as 3 door option on hybrids) that CTA might think that hybrids are for express or BRT. But I wouldn't put that much into that.

I would think hybrids would be more effective on local routes like King Drive, Sheridan, 79th or Clark, at least for fuel economy reasons.

[Busjack]

I would think hybrids would be more effective on local routes like King Drive, Sheridan, 79th or Clark, at least for fuel economy reasons.

That's what I originally thought, too. However there was a debate here a while back whether most of the battery charge is because of regenerative braking (which would favor the locals) or cruising with the generator engaged (which would favor the express). Of course, the expresses have local segments on each end.

[ChicagoNova]

I spotted NF artics #4313, 4314, 4316, & 4318 at 77th Garage, facing 79th.

[cta5658]

I spotted NF antics #4313, 4314, 4316, & 4318 at 77th Garage, facing 79th.

They are waiting to make their presence known at the 103rd Garage LOL

[See Tea Eh]

All the #4000's only have eight seats before the middle axle on both sides. (16 total, 6 transverse and a single 2x2 seat both sides ) The #4300's have 3 transverse, and five sets of 2x2 seats on the left and 3 transverse and four sets of 2x2 seats on the right for a total of 24 seats before the middle axle. Grand total 64 seats versus 56 on the other model.

The word you're looking for is "longitudinal." The 2x2 forward-facing seats are the transverse seats. The sideways facing seats are longitudinal.

[Mr.cta85]

I spotted NF artics #4313, 4314, 4316, & 4318 at 77th Garage, facing 79th.

Was that today? Cause I saw all the buses you mentioned for the exception of 4318 both yesterday and today I saw 4313 and 14 twice today working the 6. I wonder why they're at 77th for?