Red & Purple Modernization Project (RPM)

[mayfield]

I'll add my two cents in to say even the CTA isn't that stupid to shut down, as pointed out by several others here, a crazily busy 24 hr section of rail service completely for reconstruction. As already said where the heck are you going to get the extra buses to replace and/or supplement that level of service when the bus fleet has been decreased close to 300 buses without replacement?

My first reaction when I heard this plan was similar to yours - no way they could try to do this. However, the level of detail and the source from whom I received this info have led me to believe it's true.

I don't think the CTA would be foolhardy enough to characterize it in public as a south Red line shutdown (though that's what it will be). I expect they will present it as a plan where they are rerouting the Red line to the Green line tracks for 5 months. Rerouting sounds much more palatable than shutdown. No matter what they call it, it will still be super inconvenient, but the headlines won't read as badly.

Lastly I'm puzzled that so many are sucked into this particular discussion with their own imagined scenarios of what this shutdown could look like, given what references I saw of Red Line Dan Ryan construction only refers to track construction with nothing no mentions to station rebuilds.

<snip>. How that translates into the Dan Ryan portion is getting shutdown I don't know.

As explained to me and indicated on the CTA website, the work IS primarily track work. There will be some cosmetic work - painting, new lights, etc. - at stations while they are closed, but the main purposed is to rebuild track. Most of these stations already had renovations and improvements when the upgrades to the signals, crossovers and power were done in 2006-2007.

.....a total shutdown of the Red Line that's just thrust upon the public close enough to whatever supposed date of shutdown that there is no turning back from it because the wheels would be already be in motion equals instant voting out of office.

As I understand, they are getting ready to announce this plan to the aldermen, and then the public in the next few weeks - almost a year before the shutdown/reroute is to happen. Maybe they figure knowing about it for a year will minimize the inconvenience when it happens? That's only a supposition because I wasn't privy to the planning and decision-making discussion.

[greenstreet]

Based on the link, construction will be done on the south end entirely in 2013. While one could interpret that the line would be completely shut down for 5 months, that depends on a lot. First, that would be a hard sell politically. Second, we don't know the exact scope of the construction, which involves track, and not stations. If a complete shutdown is/were true, I would expect a leak to that effect shortly. That can't stay secret.

It seems to me that it has been leaked already - that's why we are reading and talking about it here. ;-)

[artthouwill]

It seems to me that it has been leaked already - that's why we are reading and talking about it here. ;-)

The discussion isn't so much about the construction as it is whether there will be a partial/complete shutdown of the Dan Ryan leg of the Red Line to accommodate it.

[Busjack]

It seems to me that it has been leaked already - that's why we are reading and talking about it here. ;-)

The discussion isn't so much about the construction as it is whether there will be a partial/complete shutdown of the Dan Ryan leg of the Red Line to accommodate it.

And, as far as it being on it being leaked through the rumor mill that the line was going to be shut down, I noted earlier how the pertinent laws do not allow selective leaking, and as jajuan also pointed out in connection with the Madison-Washington project, someone has to give us a reason, other than unbridled faith in the leaker, that the rumors are fact.

Of course, I have acknowledged, after the fact, that Huberman was covering up about the NABIs, when Rodriguez or Carter said so.

[Busjack]

After sufficient goading, Kevin of the CTA Tattler posted this response received from the CTA, so unless someone has something more authoritative (and triple hearsay is not), I would let this come to a rest.

[BusHunter]

After sufficient goading, Kevin of the CTA Tattler posted this response received from the CTA, so unless someone has something more authoritative (and triple hearsay is not), I would let this come to a rest.

I don't see no proof of anything. Of course, CTA is going to say "we're reviewing many proposals". They are not prepared to commit to this yet. But the fact that GreenStreet posted "it was leaked" shows there is something on the table. We'll probably hear something more definite about it in May when the north side station closures start. I never believed this was set in stone, but I do believe it is the leading proposal. I think the main idea of doing this in 5 months is speed. They have the north side main which is falling apart. If they don't repair that soon, there going to have a 15 mph line. Anyone remember the Green line before the rehab? But they have this public outcry issue. Sounds like they are between a rock and a hard place. They may just have too much on there plate.

[sw4400]

I see nothing in Kevin O'Neil's article about the Dan Ryan portion of the Red Line closing for the track work or station upgrades.

A $1 billion investment in the Red Line, including:

Track work on the Dan Ryan branch to eliminate slows zones, which currently afflict about 30 percent of that area. In 2013, all slow zones along this 10-mile stretch of track will be addressed as part of the Dan Ryan Track Renewal project, which will rebuild the tracks from just north of the Cermak/Chinatown station to the 95th/Dan Ryan station. As part of this same project, work also will include station improvements (lighting upgrades, painting, canopy repairs, bike racks, etc.) at the nine stations along the branch.

The Red North Station Interim Improvements project, a $57 million "design-build" rehab of seven stations at the north end of the Red Line. CTA is integrating rehabilitation of stations with other amenities including IT and customer communication enhancements.

The $150 million Wilson station reconstruction. The new transfer station will be fully accessible.

It's just going to be a "Countdown to a new Brown" kinda project. In one year they can replace the Dan Ryan tracks by single tracking throughout sections being worked on at a time, and can probably be done overnight from 9p-4a Mon-Fri with a 10p-4a Sat schedule and Sundays can be either 10p-4a also or a day project like 6a-3p in the sections they're working on.

The station rehabs can be done one at at a time(but not two adjacent stations simultaneously), just like the Brown Line project years ago.

[Busjack]

They may just have too much on there plate.

I thought you were confusing things, but I guess not.

The Press Release on the North Red Line station refurbishment says that that project is supposed to conclude in early 2013. The Dan Ryan one is supposed to start in 2013. But, if you add together disruption based on the first project to what a disruption on the south end does to service on the north end, that could be 19 months of hell. Then you mention fixing the north side tracks, but I don't see any mention of that, so long as this is considered an interim measure until such time as [CTA thinks] RPM is constructed.

The stuff they say there about:

Specific scheduling details will be determined over the next few weeks and CTA will coordinate a significant public outreach effort to inform customers and communities of any changes to service. Construction plans do include temporary station closures anticipated to be no more than six weeks. Adjacent stations will not be closed simultaneously. To minimize impact to customers, service reroutes will be scheduled for overnight and weekends only.

gives me the feeling that CTA isn't going to spring something more onerous on the south side without comparable steps.

[Busjack]

I see nothing in Kevin O'Neil's article about the Dan Ryan portion of the Red Line closing for the track work or station upgrades.

Why don't you read the comments below where I linked, both by Mike Payne (CTA Gray Line Project) and Kevin O'Neil in response, to wit:

Kevin O'Neil said 5 hours, 24 minutes ago In reply to CTA Gray Line Project: Mike and Jack: I asked the CTA this morning about the rumored station closings. I was told: "CTA is still determining the construction phasing of the Dan Ryan project; no plans are finalized. More project info should be available in the next several weeks."

To be fair, Kevin pointed out that I didn't see his response the first time. But now you fell into that trap, even though I linked to the correct comments.

BTW, it took Mike Payne only a little less than a month to post essentially what I said here.

[BusHunter]

I see nothing in Kevin O'Neil's article about the Dan Ryan portion of the Red Line closing for the track work or station upgrades.

A $1 billion investment in the Red Line, including:

Track work on the Dan Ryan branch to eliminate slows zones, which currently afflict about 30 percent of that area. In 2013, all slow zones along this 10-mile stretch of track will be addressed as part of the Dan Ryan Track Renewal project, which will rebuild the tracks from just north of the Cermak/Chinatown station to the 95th/Dan Ryan station. As part of this same project, work also will include station improvements (lighting upgrades, painting, canopy repairs, bike racks, etc.) at the nine stations along the branch.

The Red North Station Interim Improvements project, a $57 million "design-build" rehab of seven stations at the north end of the Red Line. CTA is integrating rehabilitation of stations with other amenities including IT and customer communication enhancements.

The $150 million Wilson station reconstruction. The new transfer station will be fully accessible.

It's just going to be a "Countdown to a new Brown" kinda project. In one year they can replace the Dan Ryan tracks by single tracking throughout sections being worked on at a time, and can probably be done overnight from 9p-4a Mon-Fri with a 10p-4a Sat schedule and Sundays can be either 10p-4a also or a day project like 6a-3p in the sections they're working on.

The station rehabs can be done one at at a time(but not two adjacent stations simultaneously), just like the Brown Line project years ago.

If you do the math on this it breaks down like this. CTA states in 2013 all Dan Ryan slow zones will be fixed. If we theorise they don't shut down the Dan Ryan and they fix the slow zones by weekend shutdowns only. (Like the Kennedy/blue line was) It would take roughly 2 years to complete. If you base the figures on track miles, 10 for Dan Ryan, 11 for the Blue line rehab, that theory should be correct. I think the fact that CTA states this is a 1 year project is your smoking gun. There is no other way to complete the project that fast. Now if they come out and say this will be done in 2013-14, then that changes everything.

[Busjack]

If you do the math on this it breaks down like this. CTA states in 2013 all Dan Ryan slow zones will be fixed.

They also said it in 2005-2007 (at least made the representation between Cermak and 47th), which is why I went off on the CTA Tattler that no matter how much money they dump into the sinkhole, CTA will never be in a state of good repair.

I had said earlier that there was no indication that they had put the project into Microsoft Project or the monthly construction report, so (not being in civil engineering), I'll rest on that, too.

[newport]

(snip)

My information comes via a city hall source who was briefed on the plan by a CTA official. Is this incontrovertible proof? Of course not and I don't claim that it is.

But this is what i believe to be true (based on this previously-reliable source):

• Red line will shut down completely from south of Roosevelt to 95th in spring 2013
• The shutdown will continue for five months
• southbound Red line trains will be rerouted to Green line tracks after stopping at Roosevelt and will serve all Green line stops to Ashland/63rd
• half of the Green line trains from Harlem will terminate after serving the Loop and will return to Harlem. The other Greenline trains will continue to operate south to Cottage Grove.
• bus shuttles will be provided from Garfield green station (not Ashland Green as I previously misstated) to 63rd, 69th, 79, 87th, and 95th Red.
• there will be other additional bus service.

(snip)

I heard something almost identical. I'm sorry, I can't identify my source (other than to say I believe he/she is credible and is in a position to know this information).

That said, I heard basically the same info as Mayfield detailed. The only difference is that after this plan was leaked (including here), the CTA decided to go to the public with two options for the DanRyan reconstruction instead of just one for five months. The other option they will present in public meetings is one they have already discussed internally and discarded. That plan would involve 4 years of weekend construction, complete shutdowns on weekends of the whole DanRyan line sometimes and sometimes just staggered sections of the line. It would take more money (about $40mill) and require frequent changes to the alternate service plans (shuttles, reroutes, bus service, etc.).

CTA construction thinks the five month plan is significantly better and more efficient than the four year plan, but they will present both options to the public and the elected officials. (That still doesn't necessarily mean they are going to really consider it.)

The details of these plans will be announced VERY soon. The elected officials are getting antsy that they are hearing rumors but no details. And yes, the CTA is likely to say that the five month plan involves the south Red line being re-routed, not that it is being shut down. Sounds much better that way.

[Busjack]

...

The only difference is that after this plan was leaked (including here), the CTA decided to go to the public with two options ... The elected officials are getting antsy that they are hearing rumors but no details....

If nothing else, we'll find out if Ald Pat Dowell (3rd Ward), Roderick Sawyer (6th), Michelle Harris (8th), Anthony Beale (9th), Carrie Austin (34th), and even Matthew O'Shea (19th) read this, not to mention the Rev. at TUCC, or the Rev./Sen. James Meeks, just for starters.

CTA may have decided to "go to the public," but it hasn't yet. If nothing else, the tone of this post is different from mayfield, who seems to believe that CTA can just spring a closure on the public sometime early next year. At least it is somewhat more consistent with Kevin O'Neil's comment.

Of course, I have already stated my opinion about the amateur Woodwards and Bernsteins.

[BusHunter]

I heard something almost identical. I'm sorry, I can't identify my source (other than to say I believe he/she is credible and is in a position to know this information).

The details of these plans will be announced VERY soon. The elected officials are getting antsy that they are hearing rumors but no details. And yes, the CTA is likely to say that the five month plan involves the south Red line being re-routed, not that it is being shut down. Sounds much better that way.

I guess that's one way to spin it. They just better hope nobody rides south of 63rd. It makes sense that it would cost less if it were done quicker, but they may be putting money ahead of the customer. If it does happen Jeffery BRT is going to be very popular. I would imagine they would need alot of buses for this. 50,000 riders on a typical weekday use the 95th street station. If you base that on 100 riders per bus that would be 500 bus trips/loads per day.

[Busjack]

...50,000 riders on a typical weekday use the 95th street station. If you base that on 100 riders per bus that would be 500 bus trips/loads per day.

That probably means articulated buses, which brings back my point of yesterday, or maybe the Ottawa used ones are still available. Probably worse in the rush hour, in that you have to assume that CTA has to accommodate the passengers of an 8 car train every 3 minutes in the afternoon rush (6 in the morning), and an 8 car train is rated at about 1000 passengers, although not all are going to the end of the line.

In any event, if various CTA insiders are in fact floating the rumors here for the purpose of actually comprehending feedback, one would have to weigh the cost of that bus service, and the inconvenience inflicted on the passengers, not only those going to 95th, but those transferring further south, vs. the cost of phasing the project.

[Sam92]

That probably means articulated buses, which brings back my point of yesterday, or maybe the Ottawa used ones are still available. Probably worse in the rush hour, in that you have to assume that CTA has to accommodate the passengers of an 8 car train every 3 minutes in the afternoon rush (6 in the morning), and an 8 car train is rated at about 1000 passengers, although not all are going to the end of the line.

In any event, if various CTA insiders are in fact floating the rumors here for the purpose of actually comprehending feedback, one would have to weigh the cost of that bus service, and the inconvenience inflicted on the passengers, not only those going to 95th, but those transferring further south, vs. the cost of phasing the project.

I checked the schedule and the peak direction for the Dan Ryan is about every 6-9 minutes. And we dont have to schedule as many buses at that because the schedule includes service for the north side. But since we arent substituting for northside service, they could get away with only half of the service since the Dan Ryan has half of the northside's ridership. Plus less for the reverse direction, right?

[Busjack]

I checked the schedule and the peak direction for the Dan Ryan is about every 6-9 minutes. And we dont have to schedule as many buses at that because the schedule includes service for the north side. But since we arent substituting for northside service, they could get away with only half of the service since the Dan Ryan has half of the northside's ridership. Plus less for the reverse direction, right?

Probably depends how packed the train is on each end.*

Maybe the correct analysis starts with what BusHunter was doing, which was going to the Ridership Report, but apparently he took the total for the Dan Ryan branch (50,000), instead of the boardings at 95th. What I did below is take the number of boardings south of 63 (second column) and double it (third column), because I assume a similar number of departures as boardings. Then you actually get 62,000, as follows:

69th 5703 1140679th 7533 1506687th 4966 993295th 12653 25306   61710 

Now, some will be discouraged from riding or take alternate routes (such as the Metra Electric or RID local route), and we don't know if Rahm's Cermak-Wabash station will be open, or alternate arrangements would have to be made for Cermak-Chinatown, but any way you look at it, it would be a colossal mess. making closing down the Green Line in 1995-6 peanuts by comparison. At least the Green Line fully had fully parallel routes.

___________

*The evidence for your view may be the Ridership Report indicating that the entries for the northside are 115K and 51K on the Dan Ryan branch, although Howard, Belmont, and Fullerton include other lines.

[mayfield]

CTA may have decided to "go to the public," but it hasn't yet. If nothing else, the tone of this post is different from mayfield, who seems to believe that CTA can just spring a closure on the public sometime early next year. At least it is somewhat more consistent with Kevin O'Neil's comment.

Busjack, you must have me confused with another poster. I never indicated that CTA would "just spring a closure on the public sometime next year." I said in my separate posts dating back to early March (3/6/12 and 3/17/12 ) that they were planning on shutting down in Spring 2013 and they were planning on announcing this finalized plan to the public, with no alternate options. I made no reference in my earlier posts as to exactly when they were going to make this announcement and certainly didn't indicate or imply that they were going to "spring a closure..." or wait until 2013 to announce it. (I didn't mention timing of the announcement, because I didn't know timing of the announcement.) I did mention in the 3/17 post that they had decided to do the 5-month closure "and are keeping the plan quiet for now" but did not say they were going to keep it quiet until implementation.

However, in a recent post, I did address timing of the announcement and said that I understood that they were going to make the 2013 closure announcement soon. I explicitly stated:

"As I understand, they are getting ready to announce this plan to the aldermen, and then the public

in the next few weeks - almost a year before the shutdown/reroute is to happen.

Maybe they figure knowing about it for a year will minimize the inconvenience when it happens? That's only a supposition because I wasn't privy to the planning and decision-making discussion."

If nothing else, we'll find out if Ald Pat Dowell (3rd Ward), Roderick Sawyer (6th), Michelle Harris (8th), Anthony Beale (9th), Carrie Austin (34th), and even Matthew O'Shea (19th) read this, not to mention the Rev. at TUCC, or the Rev./Sen. James Meeks, just for starters.

And on this, I think we agree, which was how I didn't understand how the CTA could develop and finalize this plan without talking to or seeking input from the elected officials and community leaders and residents.

"Apparently they haven't even let elected officials and community/religious leaders in the area know about the plan, or let the riding public (their customers) know. By the time it is announced, it will be final."

and

"To me, what is more interesting than the specific details is why CTA has developed this plan without community or aldermanic input. I expect they will want to know about a project that will affect their communities so significantly."

It appears, as Newport has posted, that they have already made one change in the plan - to provide another option for discussion. Maybe after speaking to the aldermen there will be more changes.

[BusHunter]

Probably depends how packed the train is on each end.*

Maybe the correct analysis starts with what BusHunter was doing, which was going to the Ridership Report, but apparently he took the total for the Dan Ryan branch (50,000), instead of the boardings at 95th. What I did below is take the number of boardings south of 63 (second column) and double it (third column), because I assume a similar number of departures as boardings. Then you actually get 62,000, as follows:

69th 5703 1140679th 7533 1506687th 4966 993295th 12653 25306   61710 

___________

*The evidence for your view may be the Ridership Report indicating that the entries for the northside are 115K and 51K on the Dan Ryan branch, although Howard, Belmont, and Fullerton include other lines.

50,000 riders would mean a packed bus every 3 minutes. Of course, that's not figuring when ridership peaks which could be less than a minute. (500 riders every 3 minutes if we assume half a packed train uses the south branch.) Probably it's going to be something like when the Dearborn subway closed during the loop floods of '92. I remember buses lined up as many as 3 blocks long then. I was thinking about the timing of 2013. By the time this starts they should have the 30 articulated's on order. There going to need at least that many buses to serve this. I wonder if maybe there is even higher demand, would the #6000 series come back on a limited scale. Another thing I was thinking of is you know how they did a power upgrade to the Ryan, (the reason given is so it could handle more trains) I wonder if the Green line's south branch can handle Red line service demand, plus half of it's own? (7 or 8 trains every 20 minutes in the rush) Planners most likely designed the post 1993 line with a lighter demand in mind. Now it may be handling it's heaviest loads in history!!

[Busjack]

Busjack, you must have me confused with another poster.

No. I might have glanced over some details, but it seems like any time you are challenged, the details change, Mark Felt. And you admit that.

... I wonder if the Green line's south branch can handle Red line service demand, plus half of it's own? (7 or 8 trains every 20 minutes in the rush) Planners most likely designed the post 1993 line with a lighter demand in mind. Now it may be handling it's heaviest loads in history!!

At the time they said there was one substation serving both lines and they replaced it with two substations. So, the power should already be upgraded on the Green.

That is, if you believe anything they said about the prior project.

[artthouwill]

Today I talked with a CA who asked ME about the rumors going around amongst them concerning the Red Line "shutdown". Apparently one of the managers in the know told someone, and now the word is out all over. They are worried about what is going to happen with their jobs if this goes down.

[Busjack]

Today I talked with a CA who asked ME about the rumors going around amongst them concerning the Red Line "shutdown". Apparently one of the managers in the know told someone, and now the word is out all over. They are worried about what is going to happen with their jobs if this goes down.

Either ME is known to them, or the manager or whomever read yesterday's CTA Tattler.

The CA brings up an interesting issue, in that when the Green Line was shut down for two years,* whoever was in charge (I believe Belcaster) stated that the CTA was able to balance its budget because the line wasn't staffed. Then, suddenly, it was reopened, staffed. I don't know if there was that much attrition or they had layoffs (they claimed there weren't), but I found it hard to believe that they could "turn off and on" the employment spigot that easily.

__________

*The Renew the Blue, later named the Pink was shut down for weekends first for money reasons, and then, after the rehab, they said they had to find the funding to reinstate weekend service.

[sw4400]

It looks like the Red Line projects will probably be like the "Countdown To A New Brown" Project. Stations closed for a six-week period and no adjacent stations closed together.

Story

When they start the Dan Ryan reconstruction, they can most likely do the same thing, except when they do track replacement, single track it through the affected area(s) during the overnight hours when less riders are using the line. And if they do the station upgrades, that'll be just like the North end of the Red Line. One station shut down for six weeks and no two adjacent stations shut down together

[ChicagoNova]

It looks like the Red Line projects will probably be like the "Countdown To A New Brown" Project. Stations closed for a six-week period and no adjacent stations closed together.

Story

When they start the Dan Ryan reconstruction, they can most likely do the same thing, except when they do track replacement, single track it through the affected area(s) during the overnight hours when less riders are using the line. And if they do the station upgrades, that'll be just like the North end of the Red Line. One station shut down for six weeks and no two adjacent stations shut down together

I wonder if they are going to make those stations on the Red Line ADA accessible like they did on the Brown Line.

[Busjack]

I wonder if they are going to make those stations on the Red Line ADA accessible like they did on the Brown Line.

Either Kevin Z or Kevin O indicated such for Bryn Mawr, and it was stated for the separate project for Wilson, but I think that it would take more money to do so here.

The Press Release to which Kevin Z linked also mentioned "In addition to the North Red 7 stations improvement project, the $1B Red Line investment will include a number of other projects on the Howard branch of the Red Line, including a complete reconstruction of the Wilson station (est. $200M); Major station rehabs at Sheridan, Bryn Mawr and Loyola stations (costs TBD)..." so, I guess one could add Sheridan to that list. Loyola is already accessible and the project there is mostly at street level.

The Press Release also says:

The project work at these stations will include viaduct repairs, platform repairs or replacement, station water proofing, lighting improvements and new station house finishes, such as floors, doors, windows and lighting. ...

So, unless you want to be like someone else and read into it something that is not there...