Miscellaneous Transit Stories

[briman94]

http://www.wmata.com/about_metro/news/PressReleaseDetail.cfm?ReleaseID=5909

So jealous...the CTA needs to get their act together...maybe if this whole transit funding rally pays off they can afford modern technology.

[Busjack]

So jealous...the CTA needs to get their act together...maybe if this whole transit funding rally pays off they can afford modern technology.

The linked story made it sound like the whole signal system would have to be redone (yet again).

Given past history, CTA would still figure out a way to cause an accident, even if it were installed. It also doesn't eliminate the rail operator, so there isn't a savings in operating costs.

[briman94]

The linked story made it sound like the whole signal system would have to be redone (yet again).

Given past history, CTA would still figure out a way to cause an accident, even if it were installed. It also doesn't eliminate the rail operator, so there isn't a savings in operating costs.

You're probably right...if they can make a train climb an escalator and make a 35-year-old train drive itself past 3 emergency stops in the same year, they'll probably find a way to screw up autonomous too...I guess we'll just have to wait until the entire management is cycled through in about 20 years and see if we can get with the times them :/

[BusHunter]

http://www.wmata.com/about_metro/news/PressReleaseDetail.cfm?ReleaseID=5909

A return? It was automatic before? I believe the MTA has an automated line too, so it's just a matter of time until we see it here. Wouldn't it be something if that was something explored in the #7000 series?

It would be interesting to hear the crash statistics of automated lines, has the O'Hare people mover had an accident?

[Busjack]

A return? It was automatic before? I believe the MTA has an automated line too, so it's just a matter of time until we see it here. Wouldn't it be something if that was something explored in the #7000 series?

It would be interesting to hear the crash statistics of automated lines, has the O'Hare people mover had an accident?

It was automated when there was the accident that killed the operator, which resulted in automated service being dropped until now, hence the reference to the NTSB.

NTSB report blamed the GRS/Alstom signal system, which CTA also has/had.

What would seem to be the difference between manual and automatic control was that the lead train had lost the track signal feed stopped, but somehow the following train got a 55 signal and took off on its own (rtf pages 21, 22). One would question whether if the second train were in manual mode, the operator would have cranked it up to 55 on the basis of the signal without seeing the lead train just ahead.

Page 39 indicates that the main distinction between ATO and what CTA has is that the ATO, in addition from getting the speed commands from the ATC, also automatically dispatches the trains.

[artthouwill]

It was automated when there was the accident that killed the operator, which resulted in automated service being dropped until now, hence the reference to the NTSB.

NTSB report blamed the GRS/Alstom signal system, which CTA also has/had.

What would seem to be the difference between manual and automatic control was that the lead train had lost the track signal feed stopped, but somehow the following train got a 55 signal and took off on its own (rtf pages 21, 22). One would question whether if the second train were in manual mode, the operator would have cranked it up to 55 on the basis of the signal without seeing the lead train just ahead.

Page 39 indicates that the main distinction between ATO and what CTA has is that the ATO, in addition from getting the speed commands from the ATC, also automatically dispatches the trains.

I found this very ironic. WMATA required ATO during that time. The operator of the struck train was operating in a manual mode, even after he had been discplined for not doing so on numerous occasions. That operator also had to do a lot of retraining. The operator that was doing what she was supposed to be doing was the one who lost her life. It didn't say in the report per se, but I wonder if that operator of the struck train knew something or experienced something (other than possibly lining up the train at the 8 car marker inside the stations) that would cause him to intentionally not using ATO even after being reprimanded for not doing so.

[Busjack]

I found this very ironic. WMATA required ATO during that time. The operator of the struck train was operating in a manual mode, even after he had been discplined for not doing so on numerous occasions. That operator also had to do a lot of retraining. The operator that was doing what she was supposed to be doing was the one who lost her life. It didn't say in the report per se, but I wonder if that operator of the struck train knew something or experienced something (other than possibly lining up the train at the 8 car marker inside the stations) that would cause him to intentionally not using ATO even after being reprimanded for not doing so.

The impression I got was that the scenario was similar to most CTA wrecks--stuff got off schedule, as a result something got fouled up, and people ended up dead.

The difference between the Wabash and Lake accident and this one was that in the CTA one, the motorman was in control of his train and kept pushing until he pushed the train off the structure, but things were complicated that they were running all trains only on the Outer Loop. In D.C. there was some sort of backup, but the difference is that the rear train took off on its own and the evidence was that the operator had engaged the emergency brake, and apparently the brake did work but did not overcome the 55 mph command.By your view of proximate cause, the Ravenswood train caused the CTA accident.

My reading of the report is quite clear that there should have been a 0 mph indication when the follower train approached the stopped one, regardless of what mode the stopped train was in--not 55.

Now, if you really want to mull over something, am NTSB document on the O'Hare crash indicates that the only other place on the CTA system where there is a bumper at a dead end with a lack of clearance past the bumper post is 63rd and Cottage Grove. CTA engineering said:

In order to mitigate this condition, CTA Engineering is recommending that the cab signal system in the two platform tracks be turned off. This will force all trains entering the station to make a cab signal stop and then proceed under R6. 4 conditions before reaching the normal berthing point. Long term, CTA engineering recommends extending the existing platforms to allow the fixed trips to be moved further away from the bumping posts. An alternative to extending the platform would be to design the addition of track circuits, block signals, operable train stops and associated controls similar to Kimball Terminal configuration.

Now what do you think happens if suddenly that segment of track gets a strange current setting the signal indication to 55 and a foul up train operator suddenly decides to do something strange (which always is the proximate cause of a major accident on CTA)? A train suddenly drops onto Drexel Ave.

[strictures]

The impression I got was that the scenario was similar to most CTA wrecks--stuff got off schedule, as a result something got fouled up, and people ended up dead.

The difference between the Wabash and Lake accident and this one was that in the CTA one, the motorman was in control of his train and kept pushing until he pushed the train off the structure, but things were complicated that they were running all trains only on the Outer Loop. In D.C. there was some sort of backup, but the difference is that the rear train took off on its own and the evidence was that the operator had engaged the emergency brake, and apparently the brake did work but did not overcome the 55 mph command.By your view of proximate cause, the Ravenswood train caused the CTA accident.

My reading of the report is quite clear that there should have been a 0 mph indication when the follower train approached the stopped one, regardless of what mode the stopped train was in--not 55.

Now, if you really want to mull over something, am NTSB document on the O'Hare crash indicates that the only other place on the CTA system where there is a bumper at a dead end with a lack of clearance past the bumper post is 63rd and Cottage Grove. CTA engineering said:

In order to mitigate this condition, CTA Engineering is recommending that the cab signal system in the two platform tracks be turned off. This will force all trains entering the station to make a cab signal stop and then proceed under R6. 4 conditions before reaching the normal berthing point. Long term, CTA engineering recommends extending the existing platforms to allow the fixed trips to be moved further away from the bumping posts. An alternative to extending the platform would be to design the addition of track circuits, block signals, operable train stops and associated controls similar to Kimball Terminal configuration.

Now what do you think happens if suddenly that segment of track gets a strange current setting the signal indication to 55 and a foul up train operator suddenly decides to do something strange (which always is the proximate cause of a major accident on CTA)? A train suddenly drops onto Drexel Ave.

The only thing that mitigates that at Cottage Grove is that 90%+ of all trains are switched to Track 2 when entering the station, so it's unlikely that the motorman would do something that stupid. It's more likely that a derailment would occur at the crossover. Only once in the last few years have I been on a train that went straight to the Track 1 platform.

But, being that it's the CTA, it's always a possibility.

[Busjack]

The only thing that mitigates that at Cottage Grove is that 90%+ of all trains are switched to Track 2 when entering the station, so it's unlikely that the motorman would do something that stupid. It's more likely that a derailment would occur at the crossover. Only once in the last few years have I been on a train that went straight to the Track 1 platform.

But, being that it's the CTA, it's always a possibility.

That gets into the interview of the towerman on what train goes into what pocket, although obviously the situation is more complex at O'Hare than at Cottage Grove.

[artthouwill]

The impression I got was that the scenario was similar to most CTA wrecks--stuff got off schedule, as a result something got fouled up, and people ended up dead.

The difference between the Wabash and Lake accident and this one was that in the CTA one, the motorman was in control of his train and kept pushing until he pushed the train off the structure, but things were complicated that they were running all trains only on the Outer Loop. In D.C. there was some sort of backup, but the difference is that the rear train took off on its own and the evidence was that the operator had engaged the emergency brake, and apparently the brake did work but did not overcome the 55 mph command.By your view of proximate cause, the Ravenswood train caused the CTA accident.

My reading of the report is quite clear that there should have been a 0 mph indication when the follower train approached the stopped one, regardless of what mode the stopped train was in--not 55.

Now, if you really want to mull over something, am NTSB document on the O'Hare crash indicates that the only other place on the CTA system where there is a bumper at a dead end with a lack of clearance past the bumper post is 63rd and Cottage Grove. CTA engineering said:

In order to mitigate this condition, CTA Engineering is recommending that the cab signal system in the two platform tracks be turned off. This will force all trains entering the station to make a cab signal stop and then proceed under R6. 4 conditions before reaching the normal berthing point. Long term, CTA engineering recommends extending the existing platforms to allow the fixed trips to be moved further away from the bumping posts. An alternative to extending the platform would be to design the addition of track circuits, block signals, operable train stops and associated controls similar to Kimball Terminal configuration.

Now what do you think happens if suddenly that segment of track gets a strange current setting the signal indication to 55 and a foul up train operator suddenly decides to do something strange (which always is the proximate cause of a major accident on CTA)? A train suddenly drops onto Drexel Ave.

I totally agree with you and I wasn't blaming the operator of the struck train for causing the wreck. I was merely pointing out that the report stated that he was operating his train in manual mode, which was clearly against operating procedure. There were backups in the system and certainly the ATO failed in the case of the train that got a false signal to go 55, my point was the irony that the one who followed the rules lost her life, and they couldn't dscipline the one who broke the rules for whatever reason because they had to all abandon ATO after that accident.

[MetroShadow]

http://www.wmata.com/about_metro/news/PressReleaseDetail.cfm?ReleaseID=5906

Bet you all wish you had new train cars on the Blue Line here, don'tcha?!

After seeing the videos, Ms. metrorail needs some oil in her pipes; she sounds very robotic.

[briman94]

After seeing the videos, Ms. metrorail needs some oil in her pipes; she sounds very robotic.

The funny thing is, it's still a real person...unless they changed it since I was there last. Maybe they should hire Ellen McLain

[MTRSP1900-CTA3200]

After seeing the videos, Ms. metrorail needs some oil in her pipes; she sounds very robotic.

If you've ever been to Atlanta, the little train in the airport used to have announcements by the same person who provided the original voice for Siri on the iPhone. Both voice sets have been replaced though. Maybe they were too robotic as well.

[NewFlyerMCI]

The funny thing is, it's still a real person...unless they changed it since I was there last. Maybe they should hire Ellen McLain

They changed it. This is a week for new beginnings for metro: New train, with more coming, ATO starting again...

[MTRSP1900-CTA3200]

Apparently subway vandals in New York City go beyond spray paint. Shame on them.

 

[NewFlyerMCI]

Apparently subway vandals in New York City go beyond spray paint. Shame on them.

 

​People need to find better things to do with their time. Especially with rail cars 50-51 years old...

[sw4400]

Here's a rare sight.... a Freight Train on the UP-N Line in Ravenswood/Lakeview!!! Don't see this often this far south on the line(I know somewhere north of Evanston, Freight Trains mix in with the Metra Trains all the way to Kenosha I bet).

 

[Busjack]

Here's a rare sight.... a Freight Train on the UP-N Line in Ravenswood/Lakeview!!! Don't see this often this far south on the line(I know somewhere north of Evanston, Freight Trains mix in with the Metra Trains all the way to Kenosha I bet)....

​Usually, the freights split north of Lake Bluff, use the Skokie Valley to north of Dundee Rd., then southwest to yards in the western suburbs.

Kind of hard to conceive what would need the contents of hopper cars on that stretch, unless it was for work on the tracks themselves.

[strictures]

​Usually, the freights split north of Lake Bluff, use the Skokie Valley to north of Dundee Rd., then southwest to yards in the western suburbs.

Kind of hard to conceive what would need the contents of hopper cars on that stretch, unless it was for work on the tracks themselves.

​They're ballast trains for the new track 3. Yesterday at noon, a 26 car train with two UPY locomotives, all in the low 700 number range, went south through Rogers Park, presumably from Lake Bluff, since that's the only freight connection north of here. Saturday it was at least 20 cars & three locomotives. There's a two hour break in SB Metra trains, with no arrivals scheduled for Madison St. from 11:28 AM to 1:28 PM.

Edited May 1, 2015 by strictures

[Busjack]

​They're ballast trains for the new track 3. Yesterday at noon, a 26 car train with two UPY locomotives, all in the low 700 number range, went south through Rogers Park, presumably from Lake Bluff, since that's the only freight connection north of here. Saturday it was at least 20 cars & three locomotives. There's a two hour break in SB Metra trains, with no arrivals scheduled for Madison St. from 11:28 AM to 1:28 PM.

​With that lousy looking type of hopper cars, I figured it was something like that. They were certainly not hauling grain.

[busfan2847]

Goose Island may have seen a train this week.

900 took two wagons of lumber from North Ave Yard on Monday and was seen this morning returning with two empty wagons. 900 has not been parked in North Ave yard all week so I assume it stayed with the wagons.

Edited May 1, 2015 by busfan2847

[sw4400]

Goose Island may have seen a train this week.

900 took two wagons of lumber from North Ave Yard on Monday and was seen this morning returning with two empty wagons. 900 has not been parked in North Ave yard all week so I assume it stayed with the wagons.

​I happened to be searching for railroads Chicago River North Ave on YouTube, and found this.... dated 2012(one 8/13/13). This line appears to be active, though when and how often is anyone's guess(you mentioned it might've seen a train recently, busfan2847). Looks like the most this train does is four cars. But that conductor/engineer will lay on that horn!!! Interesting crossing and layout for this line... it runs in the middle of streets in Chicago in areas!!! Here's the tape....

 

[strictures]

Goose Island may have seen a train this week.

900 took two wagons of lumber from North Ave Yard on Monday and was seen this morning returning with two empty wagons. 900 has not been parked in North Ave yard all week so I assume it stayed with the wagons.

​That SW8 is at least 61 years old. It sounds like it.

[MetroShadow]

Punk-Kids in NYC are at it again. The poster does a good job of preserving these videos so hopefully they'd get caught.

 

Edited May 4, 2015 by MetroShadow

[andrethebusman]

​I happened to be searching for railroads Chicago River North Ave on YouTube, and found this.... dated 2012(one 8/13/13). This line appears to be active, though when and how often is anyone's guess(you mentioned it might've seen a train recently, busfan2847). Looks like the most this train does is four cars. But that conductor/engineer will lay on that horn!!! Interesting crossing and layout for this line... it runs in the middle of streets in Chicago in areas!!! Here's the tape....

 

​Basically they are down to two customers. By far the bigger is General Iron, which is switched several times a week. Only other is Big Bay Lumber at Division St. The track on North Branch goes all the way to Halsted, and there used to be a customer almost at the end that made cans, but that is gone. Kingsbury track is now dead. After years of inactivity, the recycling yard at Halsted and Division shipped gondolas of wood out for a while, but city finally forced the Kingsbury track to be abandoned as a "nuisance". I wonder if the crew is actually coming in from the Bensenville operation that Chicago Terminal also has?