Busjack Posted July 16, 2014 Report Share Posted July 16, 2014 Novas are back in hiding again. Checked all posted routes out of 77th and no 7900's show up. One or two show up one day, then none show up another.... if there is an issue, why keep putting them into spotty service? Pull them, rectify the problem and then return them to service! If I was a safety inspector, CTA wouldn't be able to put the 7900's out if they had brake issues for revenue service... I'd blackball all of them until they take them off-line, fix the problem, road test them "Not In Service" and then have them inspected again before they are allowed to return to service... Bottom line, safety should be the number one priority, but I think the CTA doesn't care about safety if they're putting out buses with brake issues on an almost daily basis thinking "The problem will just go away on it's own." Somehow, this thread had come to an assumption that there is a brake issue, when such has not been documented. It is one thing is some bus driver posted here what the real reason was, but I haven't seen that. However, I have seen reckless allegations--especially by people who are not bus drivers.. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sw4400 Posted July 16, 2014 Report Share Posted July 16, 2014 Somehow, this thread had come to an assumption that there is a brake issue, when such has not been documented. It is one thing is some bus driver posted here what the real reason was, but I haven't seen that. However, I have seen reckless allegations--especially by people who are not bus drivers.. This "allegation" comes from someone who owns a car and has been told by mechanics that the braking conditions he's noticed have been due to either a brake pad or caliper problem. This member has personally noticed how the brakes on one bus were grabbing when applied, and on another how the Bus Operator had to pump the brakes to slow the bus down and when held down, the brakes would make a grinding sound. The bus isn't even a year old and the brakes grinding is not normal, Busjack! Brakes go through wear and tear, yes... but not in the amount of time that these buses have been in service. I believe BusHunter knows what he's talking about in his posts(link to the links here) both in his experience in vehicle ownership and that he also has insiders with CTA that he collaborates with for information which he shares with us. The sound of brakes grinding is the same on any vehicle, car, truck or bus.... none of these vehicles should be making that sound when brakes are applied. This, I know growing up in the house of a mechanic who worked on his own vehicle and also worked on buses, both School Buses and Motorcoaches... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Busjack Posted July 16, 2014 Report Share Posted July 16, 2014 This "allegation" comes from someone who owns a car and has been told by mechanics that the braking conditions he's noticed have been due to either a brake pad or caliper problem. This member has personally noticed how the brakes on one bus were grabbing when applied, and on another how the Bus Operator had to pump the brakes to slow the bus down and when held down, the brakes would make a grinding sound. The bus isn't even a year old and the brakes grinding is not normal, .. As I said, apparently you aren't the dispatcher at 77th, nor a mechanic there, as well. Thus, other than some member's observation on one ride, you do not have any factual basis for any assertion why the buses were not seen on BusTracker when you looked at it. Admit it--that's the only personal knowledge you have. Go down to 77th and find out yourself. Andre said something about post-assembly modifications, maybe you can go to Plattsburgh and find out what those are, too. The ones on the rail cars eventually came out. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jajuan Posted July 16, 2014 Report Share Posted July 16, 2014 As I said, apparently you aren't the dispatcher at 77th, nor a mechanic there, as well. Thus, other than some member's observation on one ride, you do not have any factual basis for any assertion why the buses were not seen on BusTracker when you looked at it. Admit it--that's the only personal knowledge you have. Go down to 77th and find out yourself. Andre said something about post-assembly modifications, maybe you can go to Plattsburgh and find out what those are, too. The ones on the rail cars eventually came out. I agree. BusHunter only mentioned the brake issue on one ride and he said on a subsequent ride it seemed to be better but he still noticed operators seemed to be driving 7900s extra cautiously compared to other models. He never really mentioned the brakes again too much after that. I personally only referenced that initial brake issue BusHunter noticed as maybe being one of those teething issues Art referenced a while ago that 77th might be ironing out. And I further mentioned in light of Andre referencing post-assembly modifications that we all need to lay off and let the Plattsburgh people and CTA's inspectors do what they need to do to be sure the subsequent buses after this point to be delivered are assembled the right way so that the public is confident the buses are safe to ride. Beyond that though, sw it's like you've latched onto the brake thing and blown the whole thing out of proportion. And as far as not seeing any in service today, there only six or seven in revenue service so far in the entire system. Come on. It's not entirely strange not to see any or very many out in any one instant. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BusHunter Posted July 16, 2014 Report Share Posted July 16, 2014 I agree. BusHunter only mentioned the brake issue on one ride and he said on a subsequent ride it seemed to be better but he still noticed operators seemed to be driving 7900s extra cautiously compared to other models. He never really mentioned the brakes again too much after that. I personally only referenced that initial brake issue BusHunter noticed as maybe being one of those teething issues Art referenced a while ago that 77th might be ironing out. And I further mentioned in light of Andre referencing post-assembly modifications that we all need to lay off and let the Plattsburgh people and CTA's inspectors do what they need to do to be sure the subsequent buses after this point to be delivered are assembled the right way so that the public is confident the buses are safe to ride. Beyond that though, sw it's like you've latched onto the brake thing and blown the whole thing out of proportion. And as far as not seeing any in service today, there only six or seven in revenue service so far in the entire system. Come on. It's not entirely strange not to see any or very many out in any one instant. Yeah let's just say if I bought a new car and it sounded like this I would be PO'ed. The brake problem still exists, I mentioned it on #7920, but the operator was pumping the brakes excessively so you're not going to get into the grinding phase unless you hold the pedal down. #7901 was more pronounced maybe it's worse because it was grinding twice as bad easily noticeable. Just take a ride on the #2 and you'll see what I hear when he comes off the drive. But yeah this shouldn't sound like this. This is a new bus not a #6400. What will it sound like in a few years? Something is up. You don't get just 8 buses in two months for no reason. When we start seeing 5 to 10 coming in per week I guess all issues are resolved. The one thing that kind of questions what Andre said was that if they are fixing and changing a few things on the first few buses then what happened to the #7930's, they should carrying on with the order and they're not. That seems to be the big question in my mind, why not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artthouwill Posted July 16, 2014 Report Share Posted July 16, 2014 Who is saying that the problem lies within the brakes? All of the buses got here with no problems. Whether you drive a bus or a car, anytime you drive something new, it is imperative that while test driving, you test the brakes. Brakes can be different especially bus to bus. Anyone who drove an Orion series bus and then had to drive something else can tell you it is different and especially noticeable in the vice versa. Heck I've even seen differences in braking in two different buses of the same make and model. It could be that the brakes are calibrated tighter on these buses than the drivers are used to. It can take a little time, but a good driver can adjust, or CTA mechanics can "loosen" the brakes some, and perhaps ask Nova to calibrate to a certain extent. That is not a defect. A defect would be brakes locking up at the slightest touch, or brakes have to be applied half way or 3/4 way before the brakes grab. As far as a grinding sound goes, I am not a mechanic, but it could be nothing more than bushings rubbing underneath. I've heard it before on the older Novas, and I've heard it on MCI coaches when those buses are in reverse and I've applied the brakes. Ironically, I've never experienced that on Prevost buses, and Prevost and Nova are part of the Volvo group. I honestly believe if there were any defects, those buses would not be on the street at all. The fact that they are out and usually on the same runs every day tells me that perhaps those drivers have made the driver adjustments necessary. If nothing else, drivers will be more cautious with these new buses for awhile. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaylorTank1229 Posted July 16, 2014 Report Share Posted July 16, 2014 #7920 & #7904 running southbound on #2 Hype Pk. Express. Onboard video for #7920 coming soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHICAGO D40LF Posted July 17, 2014 Report Share Posted July 17, 2014 Look what cta let out late 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jajuan Posted July 17, 2014 Report Share Posted July 17, 2014 I wonder if someone at the garage messed up by sending a 7900 out late It's still a bus that's in revenue service, and the route in question runs into late evening. So why wouldn't the bus itself be out late and why would it be a mistake that it was? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHICAGO D40LF Posted July 17, 2014 Report Share Posted July 17, 2014 It's still a bus that's in revenue service, and the route in question runs into late evening. So why wouldn't the bus itself be out late and why would it be a mistake that it was? your right they are no longer in testing so that explains why they are not restricted to rush hour like they usually have been Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BusHunter Posted July 17, 2014 Report Share Posted July 17, 2014 I looked just for the curiosity how quickly did cta get the nabi #7500's compared to these #7900's. And I found out cta got the first 9 nabi's in six weeks. (8/19 -10/9 2003) So far we have yet to see the ninth #7900 and if you figure the first two were delivered in feb that takes cta down to 7 buses in about six weeks. So delivery is now slower than the nabi's and we all know how they turned out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajm522 Posted July 17, 2014 Report Share Posted July 17, 2014 The 7900's seem to be out in numbers this AM rush. 7901 and 7904 on number 1. 7907 is on number 2. 7910 is on number 8. 7927 is on the number 3 this AM rush. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Busjack Posted July 17, 2014 Report Share Posted July 17, 2014 I looked just for the curiosity how quickly did cta get the nabi #7500's compared to these #7900's. And I found out cta got the first 9 nabi's in six weeks. (8/19 -10/9 2003) So far we have yet to see the ninth #7900 and if you figure the first two were delivered in feb that takes cta down to 7 buses in about six weeks. So delivery is now slower than the nabi's and we all know how they turned out. Again, I don't know what this proves, and it apparently proves the opposite of what you think. For example, CTA inspectors were not put into the NABI plant until most of the order had already been delivered, and sure NABI could crank out junk real quick. On the other hand, this contract is quite clear that a bus does not get released until a CTA inspector does so. Like sw, I suggest that if you are so concerned about this, go to Plattsburgh and find out. Otherwise, I don't think either of you is writing the $146,000 check signifying that the bus has been cleared for delivery. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BusHunter Posted July 17, 2014 Report Share Posted July 17, 2014 Again, I don't know what this proves, and it apparently proves the opposite of what you think. For example, CTA inspectors were not put into the NABI plant until most of the order had already been delivered, and sure NABI could crank out junk real quick. On the other hand, this contract is quite clear that a bus does not get released until a CTA inspector does so. Like sw, I suggest that if you are so concerned about this, go to Plattsburgh and find out. Otherwise, I don't think either of you is writing the $146,000 check signifying that the bus has been cleared for delivery. Oh the check has been wrote month's ago. Just look at the CTA payments database. I believe they already paid for 20 buses. The connection I'm getting at is that the NABI's had a hard time getting out of the factory because they most likely knew themselves something was off in their product and were trying to correct it. CTA cannot reject a bus if they don't get one to reject unless their is a fundamental reject or concern with the fleet in general. In writing the checks it appears the delay may not be CTA's fault it may be Novabus' because then why would they write a check for something that has something wrong with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Busjack Posted July 17, 2014 Report Share Posted July 17, 2014 Oh the check has been wrote month's ago. Just look at the CTA payments database. I believe they already paid for 20 buses. The connection I'm getting at is that the NABI's had a hard time getting out of the factory because they most likely knew themselves something was off in their product and were trying to correct it. CTA cannot reject a bus if they don't get one to reject unless their is a fundamental reject or concern with the fleet in general. In writing the checks it appears the delay may not be CTA's fault it may be Novabus' because then why would they write a check for something that has something wrong with it. Maybe I diverted you. The point isn't whether you are the CTA Comptroller, but that you and sw don't know what is going on either in the plant or at South Shops. My other point was that if you were trying to make some kind of comparison to NABI, it is invalid, for such reasons as a CTA inspector has to release a Nova bus for delivery, while NABI could ship any junk out. This may be another diversion, but I bet you haven't read the specifications on in plant inspections and acceptance of the vehicle, compared to the fleet defect provisions,. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.cta85 Posted July 17, 2014 Report Share Posted July 17, 2014 The 7900's seem to be out in numbers this AM rush. 7901 and 7904 on number 1. 7907 is on number 2. 7910 is on number 8. 7927 is on the number 3 this AM rush. That's a 10-4 cause I saw 7907 heading north bound as I going southbound as a 29 this morning. Those buses to me are a modern version of the old fishbowl buses mixed with the 4400's as far as the design is concerned, their back windows just make me think of those buses. The new flyers remind me of the man buses too with their box shape design the ones we have anyway lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BusHunter Posted July 17, 2014 Report Share Posted July 17, 2014 The 7900's seem to be out in numbers this AM rush. 7901 and 7904 on number 1. 7907 is on number 2. 7910 is on number 8. 7927 is on the number 3 this AM rush. That would be a first a #7900 on the #3 and #7927 no less. That would lead me to suspect there is more than just #7925 new at south shops. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BusHunter Posted July 17, 2014 Report Share Posted July 17, 2014 Maybe I diverted you. The point isn't whether you are the CTA Comptroller, but that you and sw don't know what is going on either in the plant or at South Shops. My other point was that if you were trying to make some kind of comparison to NABI, it is invalid, for such reasons as a CTA inspector has to release a Nova bus for delivery, while NABI could ship any junk out. This may be another diversion, but I bet you haven't read the specifications on in plant inspections and acceptance of the vehicle, compared to the fleet defect provisions,. I would like to think there was some Q and A on the NABI end of the bus order. I don't think anyone just ships out what they please. I don't believe things are any different inspection wise as they were 9 years ago. But the fact is the order was to deliver 50 buses every two months, so far they have fulfilled barely 10 percent of what was agreed upon. I don't need to go anywhere to see there is a problem, all I have to do is open my eyes and see what I don't see and what I do!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Busjack Posted July 17, 2014 Report Share Posted July 17, 2014 I would like to think there was some Q and A on the NABI end of the bus order. I don't think anyone just ships out what they please. I don't believe things are any different inspection wise as they were 9 years ago. But the fact is the order was to deliver 50 buses every two months, so far they have fulfilled barely 10 percent of what was agreed upon. I don't need to go anywhere to see there is a problem, all I have to do is open my eyes and see what I don't see and what I do!! How do you explain the news stories in 2005 that once complaints came in about the structure of NABIs already on the street, CTA then sent inspectors to Alabama? You can look that up. There may be a delay in the delivery schedule, but you don't know what caused it, and you sent sw off the edge by suggesting a safety related brake defect. May I point out that with respect to the two interruptions in the rail car deliveries, the genius posters here didn't guess either reason correctly in advance of publication in the news of the reasons? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sw4400 Posted July 17, 2014 Report Share Posted July 17, 2014 That's a 10-4 cause I saw 7907 heading north bound as I going southbound as a 29 this morning. Those buses to me are a modern version of the old fishbowl buses mixed with the 4400's as far as the design is concerned, their back windows just make me think of those buses. The new flyers remind me of the man buses too with their box shape design the ones we have anyway lol. I see it a little differently... Cooling system on top: GM Fishbowls Rear Window: Flyer D901A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BusHunter Posted July 17, 2014 Report Share Posted July 17, 2014 How do you explain the news stories in 2005 that once complaints came in about the structure of NABIs already on the street, CTA then sent inspectors to Alabama? You can look that up. There may be a delay in the delivery schedule, but you don't know what caused it, and you sent sw off the edge by suggesting a safety related brake defect. May I point out that with respect to the two interruptions in the rail car deliveries, the genius posters here didn't guess either reason correctly in advance of publication in the news of the reasons? CTA dropping the ball. Inspectors should have caught that in 2003 and didn't. This is probably one of the reasons it takes so long now to get anything in great numbers. I can't control what other members choose to do with the information I pass on. I'm just the messenger. The buses will be alright, just don't drive them on the expressway or they will always be in the shop for brakes, the grinding is most likely prematurely wearing out the brakes. It would be nice to at least investigate the cause cause the grinding is taking away the smooth surface of the brakes. It may or may not be a big deal. If it is we'll hear about it in a few years, but I wouldn't be surprised if a recall is issued somewhere in the future. Other TA's with 2014 Novas need to see if they have the same problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon93 Posted July 17, 2014 Report Share Posted July 17, 2014 Rode 7904 this morning on the 1; the engine sounds similar to the engines the NF's are getting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sw4400 Posted July 17, 2014 Report Share Posted July 17, 2014 Rode 7904 this morning on the 1; the engine sounds similar to the engines the NF's are getting. They are equipped with a Cummins ISL9 engine, which is the same engine in the 4300 and 4333-Series New Flyer DE60LFR and D60LFR. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jajuan Posted July 17, 2014 Report Share Posted July 17, 2014 CTA dropping the ball. Inspectors should have caught that in 2003 and didn't. This is probably one of the reasons it takes so long now to get anything in great numbers. I can't control what other members choose to do with the information I pass on. I'm just the messenger. The buses will be alright, just don't drive them on the expressway or they will always be in the shop for brakes, the grinding is most likely prematurely wearing out the brakes. It would be nice to at least investigate the cause cause the grinding is taking away the smooth surface of the brakes. It may or may not be a big deal. If it is we'll hear about it in a few years, but I wouldn't be surprised if a recall is issued somewhere in the future. Other TA's with 2014 Novas need to see if they have the same problem. But no one can say for sure if the brake thing is a physically mechanical problem or more related to this being a new bus that CTA operators aren't yet used to. Yes CTA got buses from Nova before that are still in operation, but that was still 12 to 13 years ago as counted against individual units. That's long enough for differences in how parts on the 2001/2002 CTA Nova model and the current 2014 7900-series model are calibrated to accumulate and make a 7900 an entirely different bus to operate compared to a 6400. In essence, just because it's the same manufacturer doesn't mean things are still done the same as 12 years ago. Art made a valid point about parts calibration. And we really don't know what the post-assembly modifications Andre brought up are or how involved they are. Yeah they gave out early timetables for when and how often buses would be delivered, but modifications to prior specs on a bus procurement aren't exactly all that new and have occurred before this without the actual central reason being anything dire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam92 Posted July 17, 2014 Report Share Posted July 17, 2014 Soooo I'm guessing no one caught or notice the 7900 that was on #87 yesterday? Lol. I saw it but was waaaaay to far away to read the fleet number Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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