1000-series D40LF - Updates & Retirements

[Busjack]

11 hours ago, YoungBusLover said:

I'm not sure if it was cost saving measure done by CTA or New Flyer themselves

CTA certainly agreed to it. We discussed it at the time here. The link to the CTA Press Release there is broken, but it's here; the rationale was that a lighter bus would save fuel. Several of us questioned that, and, about 14 years later, we were right, but they exceeded the 12-year FTA service life.

Quote

In addition, before completing its order for 400 low-emission 40-foot buses from New Flyer of America, Inc., the CTA was able to reduce the weight of these new buses by approximately 1,000 lbs. By switching from a stainless steel chassis to carbon steel and by using a smaller, more efficient engine, the gas mileage increased from 3.18 mpg to 3.28 mpg.

Eac

On the 4000s, it was whatever the Seattle spec.

[YoungBusLover]

20 minutes ago, Busjack said:

CTA certainly agreed to it. We discussed it at the time here. The link to the CTA Press Release there is broken, but it's here; the rationale was that a lighter bus would save fuel. Several of us questioned that, and, about 14 years later, we were right, but they exceeded the 12-year FTA service life.

On the 4000s, it was whatever the Seattle spec.

Thank you for the link, after reviewing everything from that thread and seeing the good Ole Ron Huberman had his hand in that decision for carbon steel frames just boggles my mind. 

[Shannoncvpi]

3 hours ago, YoungBusLover said:

Thank you for the link, after reviewing everything from that thread and seeing the good Ole Ron Huberman had his hand in that decision for carbon steel frames just boggles my mind. 

Yea & it really didn't save that much more gas cta was just trying some knowing that lil bit wasn't really nothing now if it went from 3.18 to 6. Some then yea a big change but not even a whole  gallon  change

[Sam92]

5 hours ago, Shannoncvpi said:

Yea & it really didn't save that much more gas cta was just trying some knowing that lil bit wasn't really nothing now if it went from 3.18 to 6. Some then yea a big change but not even a whole  gallon  change

Fr I can see if the difference bumped it to like 5 mpg from 3.whatever lol. Now the fuel "savings" go Into more frequent repairs due to less durable frames. Same mindset I have when it comes to bikes.... "You need the strongest material to survive the wild swings of Chicago weather" freeze-thaw cycles are a motherf*****er. I remember my house's foundation used to sink due to that. 

[Shannoncvpi]

On 10/25/2023 at 6:16 PM, Sam92 said:

Fr I can see if the difference bumped it to like 5 mpg from 3.whatever lol. Now the fuel "savings" go Into more frequent repairs due to less durable frames. Same mindset I have when it comes to bikes.... "You need the strongest material to survive the wild swings of Chicago weather" freeze-thaw cycles are a motherf*****er. I remember my house's foundation used to sink due to that. 

Yea when they say they ganied something they cut cost elsewhere 

[Bus1883]

#1696 is now on the SS fence along Vincennes Ave.

[YoungBusLover]

I found some new editions this week added to the Boneyard, #800 has popped back up there after it's 2nd life journey. #1969 and #1998 (farebox removed) are back there. 

[YoungBusLover]

On 10/24/2023 at 6:09 AM, YoungBusLover said:

I found some new editions to the the boneyard I found over the weekend being that #1122, #1152, #1189,#1689,#1747,#1763, and #1984.  This will be the first time in a while that I've visibly seen #1747. The bikerack is removed among other interior components. #1305 and #1821 were finally given LTH/300 stickers, A host of other #1000s have them as well now. 

Update on this block of buses I mentioned a few weeks ago. They been moved into another section of the boneyard to make room for more #1000 due to be added balc there. #1645 and #1845 have been moved as well to sit with them as well. Notably #1763 has been given the LTH/300 yellow sticker so I know it's on the way out in the future. 

[Mr.NewFlyer1279]

1 hour ago, YoungBusLover said:

Update on this block of buses I mentioned a few weeks ago. They been moved into another section of the boneyard to make room for more #1000 due to be added balc there. #1645 and #1845 have been moved as well to sit with them as well. Notably #1763 has been given the LTH/300 yellow sticker so I know it's on the way out in the future. 

1122 made a return last week

[Bus1883]

10 hours ago, YoungBusLover said:

I found some new editions this week added to the Boneyard, #800 has popped back up there after it's 2nd life journey. #1969 and #1998 (farebox removed) are back there. 

They must have moved #800 around, because it was facing north visible from a distance or u meant #1800

[Shannoncvpi]

On 11/5/2023 at 8:34 AM, YoungBusLover said:

I found some new editions this week added to the Boneyard, #800 has popped back up there after it's 2nd life journey. #1969 and #1998 (farebox removed) are back there. 

Dam where has 800 been I it just popped up 

[YoungBusLover]

13 minutes ago, Shannoncvpi said:

Dam where has 800 been I it just popped up 

It was sitting deep in the boneyard but now it is ready to be hauled off for scrap.

[sw4400]

So, reading back into all these posts with pics about the carbon frame D40LF's, 1630-2029 will effectively be phased out in the next few years ahead of 1000-1629? Or is it based on condition and how the Chicago winters have treated them?

[artthouwill]

39 minutes ago, sw4400 said:

So, reading back into all these posts with pics about the carbon frame D40LF's, 1630-2029 will effectively be phased out in the next few years ahead of 1000-1629? Or is it based on condition and how the Chicago winters have treated them?

Welcome back stranger!  Long time since we last heard from you 

 

I think CTA intended to get rid of the oldest New Flyers and hang onto 1630 - 2029, but the latter series isn't holding up as well as expected.   I believe they will have to place a large order to replace the entire series.  The Novas were intended to replace half of the 1000s.   Ideally they want to replace the other half with electrics, but I don't know how feasible or realistic that would be.   Even though I think the best option is to order another set of diesels while trying to upgrade to electrics, I believe CTA is committed to electrics come hell or high water.  Yet they can't yet 22 electrics on the road.

[Busjack]

3 hours ago, artthouwill said:

Welcome back stranger!  Long time since we last heard from you 

 

I think CTA intended to get rid of the oldest New Flyers and hang onto 1630 - 2029, but the latter series isn't holding up as well as expected.   I believe they will have to place a large order to replace the entire series.  The Novas were intended to replace half of the 1000s.   Ideally they want to replace the other half with electrics, but I don't know how feasible or realistic that would be.   Even though I think the best option is to order another set of diesels while trying to upgrade to electrics, I believe CTA is committed to electrics come hell or high water.  Yet they can't yet 22 electrics on the road.

Again, you are showing your prejudices. The plan is to get 600 Novas, and rehab 450 NFs. That adds up to the 1030 buses at issue. Electrics don't enter into it. @sw4400's question is basically what 1000s will be rehabbed. Based on what various drivers have said, 1630-2029 are too rusted to do it.

[artthouwill]

10 minutes ago, Busjack said:

Again, you are showing your prejudices. The plan is to get 600 Novas, and rehab 450 NFs. That adds up to the 1030 buses at issue. Electrics don't enter into it. @sw4400's question is basically what 1000s will be rehabbed. Based on what various drivers have said, 1630-2029 are too rusted to do it.

That's not a prejudice.   By your own admission,  the 1630 - 2029 most likely won't get rehabbed because of rusting.  So will CTA actually rehab 450 of the 1000 - 1629?  The oldest of this bunch is nearly 18 years old already.   So the rest will be kept until they just rust out or become expensive enough to forego repairs.  Why sink money into a rusting bus? 

Thus CTA will still need to replace 450 buses in the not too distant future regardless of what buses get rehabbed.

 

[Shannoncvpi]

23 hours ago, YoungBusLover said:

It was sitting deep in the boneyard but now it is ready to be hauled off for scrap.

Dam thought it was gone already 

[Busjack]

12 hours ago, artthouwill said:

...So will CTA actually rehab 450 of the 1000 - 1629?  The oldest of this bunch is nearly 18 years old already.  ...

 

Either CTA will, or it was lying in the budget. I give 60/40 odds on that split.

12 hours ago, artthouwill said:

...So the rest will be kept until they just rust out or become expensive enough to forego repairs.  Why sink money into a rusting bus? 

...

 

As was pointed out throughout this topic, 1000-1629 have stainless steel frames, while CTA cheaped out on 1630-2029.

12 hours ago, artthouwill said:

...

Thus CTA will still need to replace 450 buses in the not too distant future regardless of what buses get rehabbed.

 

But it is pretty clear from the Electrification page that CTA never planned to buy 450 electric buses in the  immediate future. First big electric purchase in the plan and budget is to replace 208 articulated buses (which, according to the drivers, have the same problems as 1630-2029).

[YoungBusLover]

17 hours ago, sw4400 said:

So, reading back into all these posts with pics about the carbon frame D40LF's, 1630-2029 will effectively be phased out in the next few years ahead of 1000-1629? Or is it based on condition and how the Chicago winters have treated them?

Welcome back Sir! To answer your question though, The #1630-#2029 range of Flyers might get phased out sooner rather than later especially if the overall cost to maintain them before the rehabs even start become too expensive. The real key in this equation right now to me is FG with all those former K #1600s they've received in the last several weeks. If they can't survive the outdoor conditions up there this winter and early spring I think we'll see another shift of buses being moved from the #1630-#2029 range. Realistically it would be better if those buses we're split up evenly with C,74th,77th, and 103rd. Sending FG back some #1200s/#1300s in exchange for  #1600s from 77th could perhaps keep the Carbon frames from getting worse, Sending some #1700s/#1800s to 74th in exchange for #1400s/#1500s to NP and C could also work and then the last of the #1900/#2000s could be split up between the remaining garages of 74th,77th and 103rd. 

[YoungBusLover]

2 hours ago, Shannoncvpi said:

Dam thought it was gone already 

Nope it was in the same spot for years collecting dusting until most recently.

[Busjack]

10 minutes ago, YoungBusLover said:

.....The real key in this equation right now to me is FG with all those former K #1600s they've received in the last several weeks. If they can't survive the outdoor conditions up there this winter and early spring I think we'll see another shift of buses being moved from the #1630-#2029 range. Realistically it would be better if those buses we're split up evenly with C,74th,77th, and 103rd. Sending FG back some #1200s/#1300s in exchange for  #1600s from 77th could perhaps keep the Carbon frames from getting worse, Sending some #1700s/#1800s to 74th in exchange for #1400s/#1500s to NP and C could also work and then the last of the #1900/#2000s could be split up between the remaining garages of 74th,77th and 103rd. 

The question is whether the corrosion is from sitting in the yard or from the streets. If the former, NP is in worse shape, with only a few lower 1000s from 103rd, and 4300s.

[YoungBusLover]

11 minutes ago, Busjack said:

The question is whether the corrosion is from sitting in the yard or from the streets. If the former, NP is in worse shape, with only a few lower 1000s from 103rd, and 4300s.

I'd say its a combination of both, corrosion from Regular service, LSD deadheads and also sitting out in the elements 24/7 doesn't help with that in the case of NP. I just hope in the case of FG those #1600s don't suffer the same fate as the #1700s and #1800s have.

[andrethebusman99]

I would say road salt is #1 problem, especially underneath. 

[artthouwill]

4 hours ago, YoungBusLover said:

Welcome back Sir! To answer your question though, The #1630-#2029 range of Flyers might get phased out sooner rather than later especially if the overall cost to maintain them before the rehabs even start become too expensive. The real key in this equation right now to me is FG with all those former K #1600s they've received in the last several weeks. If they can't survive the outdoor conditions up there this winter and early spring I think we'll see another shift of buses being moved from the #1630-#2029 range. Realistically it would be better if those buses we're split up evenly with C,74th,77th, and 103rd. Sending FG back some #1200s/#1300s in exchange for  #1600s from 77th could perhaps keep the Carbon frames from getting worse, Sending some #1700s/#1800s to 74th in exchange for #1400s/#1500s to NP and C could also work and then the last of the #1900/#2000s could be split up between the remaining garages of 74th,77th and 103rd. 

CTA will have to figure out which is better, leaving 1630s and up outside st FG or subjecting those buses to Lake Effect Snow, which tends to hit the south side near the lake more?  Between replacing these and the 4000s, CTS has its work cut out.  This is why I keep saying that CTA has to order st least another set of diesel buses,  if not more until there's some consistency and reliability with electrics.  I still think 2040 is too soon to aim for an all electric fleet. 

[sw4400]

Now, the 1000-1629 series if I recall correctly are powered by the Cummins ISM engines, and the 1630-2029 series are powered by the Cummins ISL series engines. Aside from 1930-2029, which have Allison transmissions, not ZF's... could they transplant the engines from them to the older models as these probably have less miles on them due to them being newer model years. Would that be plausible given the amount of work needed to transplant engines from one bus to another? That would be like a overhaul, so to speak....