6400-series Nova LFS - Updates & Retirements

[Guest]

the operator can't be held responsible for something he can't control.  It's the mechanics job to make sure the air is working in the bus not the operators..as long as that bus is in good driving condition, no ac in a bus is not our fault. Now If it's blazing hot we can call it in to control but like andre said if you only got a trip left might as well finish that trip then pull it in the garage so they can take it from there. 

As I said, we live in a lawsuit hungry society! The bus operator has a responsibility to make sure that bus is in safe working order to operate. Granted he is not a mechanic but If the a/c isn't working he of course has a duty to report it. Whether or not CTA actually does something about it, either way if a medical emergency were to arise. I wouldn't doubt that individual or their family would not only sue CTA but also the bus operator as well.

 

Edited August 1, 2015 by Guest

[jajuan]

As I said, we live in a lawsuit hungry society! The bus operator has a responsibility to make sure that bus is in safe working order to operate. Granted he is not a mechanic but If the a/c isn't working he of course has a duty to report it. Whether or not CTA actually does something about it, either way if a medical emergency were to arise. I wouldn't doubt that individual or their family would not only sue CTA but also the bus operator as well.

 

Yes we live in a lawsuit hungry society, but we also see cases dropped against individuals while their employers might still be held to some liabilities in situations like that after it's been established the individual did his part under the conditions he/she ACTUALLY COULD CONTROL. If everyone spent their days spooked of being held accountable for every little thing that is beyond their control, no one would be able to provide any kind of service at all. Everyone already agreed that yes the operator reports malfunctions on his bus that might affect safety. Once he does it's out of his hands. It's CTA Control's responsibility to respond as swiftly as the situation may allow. And even then, whatever Emergency maintenance vehicles may be closest, or replacement bus if the situation calls for it, don't have wings. They still have to operate in Chicago traffic also in getting to that operator.

[Busjack]

As I said, we live in a lawsuit hungry society! The bus operator has a responsibility to make sure that bus is in safe working order to operate. Granted he is not a mechanic but If the a/c isn't working he of course has a duty to report it. Whether or not CTA actually does something about it, either way if a medical emergency were to arise. I wouldn't doubt that individual or their family would not only sue CTA but also the bus operator as well.

 

Yes we live in a lawsuit hungry society, but we also see cases dropped against individuals while their employers might still be held to some liabilities in situations like that after it's been established the individual did his part under the conditions he/she ACTUALLY COULD CONTROL. If everyone spent their days spooked of being held accountable for every little thing that is beyond their control, no one would be able to provide any kind of service at all. Everyone already agreed that yes the operator reports malfunctions on his bus that might affect safety. Once he does it's out of his hands. It's CTA Control's responsibility to respond as swiftly as the situation may allow. And even then, whatever Emergency maintenance vehicles may be closest, or replacement bus if the situation calls for it, don't have wings. They still have to operate in Chicago traffic also in getting to that operator.

• Unless the employee is guilty of willful or wanton conduct, only the employer is responsible under the theory of respondeat superior. Even if the employee is named, nobody expects to collect from someone who is making $50,000/year, when CTA has litigation reserves. As I mentioned before, in a traffic accident case, the employee is usually named because a corporation has to act through someone. However, if the argument is that CTA itself had a duty to inspect the bus before leaving the garage, it would have institutional liability, and it would not even be necessary to name unknown mechanics.
• It would be one thing to say that a bus was let out of the garage in unsafe condition because the brakes were defective or it was spewing exhaust fumes into the bus, and another to claim that the bus is unsafe because the a/c doesn't work. In 1995, when people were dying, most of the buses either were not air conditioned or their air conditioning did not work (I think the only buses with working air conditioning were the 5300s, plus maybe any 5800s or 6000s that had been delivered at that point; New Looks were running into September). 5750: Seriously, how many heat stroke calls did CFD receive in 2015 compared to 1995?

[BusHunter]

I remember the #7300's were real bad for letting exhaust fumes inside the bus. Their were many reports of operators feeling dizzy on those. I wonder how CTA got away with running those junk buses? At least the windows opened on those. If not they would have had alot of problems.

[Busjack]

I remember the #7300's were real bad for letting exhaust fumes inside the bus. Their were many reports of operators feeling dizzy on those. I wonder how CTA got away with running those junk buses? At least the windows opened on those. If not they would have had alot of problems.

There is a reported case about 8650 (Flxible strange New Look), but I don't recall anything since. Obviously, there was some reason why King County got rid of them, but what CTA replaced them with (NABIs) also had safety problems. Again, there may be a connection between Dorval Carter having come from the legal department and being the one who initially yanked them.

[artthouwill]

I guess transportation services providers will never win.  If a vehicle shows up with no A/C, people will complain ans say things like "this vehicle shouldn't be on the street."  I think about how mad those same people would be if NO vehicle showed up and they were left stranded on a hot street or in the rain.  At least on the buses and trains there are hopper windows and roof hatches that open so that some semblance of air can get in.  Sometimes a malfunction occurs while the bus is on the street (the air was working then it conked out).  Sometimes depending on the number of buses in the shop, the non A/c buses are the safest to go out on the street if there is a shortage.  I'd rather see a vehicle with no A/C than no vehicle at all.

[artthouwill]

 

• Unless the employee is guilty of willful or wanton conduct, only the employer is responsible under the theory of respondeat superior. Even if the employee is named, nobody expects to collect from someone who is making $50,000/year, when CTA has litigation reserves. As I mentioned before, in a traffic accident case, the employee is usually named because a corporation has to act through someone. However, if the argument is that CTA itself had a duty to inspect the bus before leaving the garage, it would have institutional liability, and it would not even be necessary to name unknown mechanics.
• It would be one thing to say that a bus was let out of the garage in unsafe condition because the brakes were defective or it was spewing exhaust fumes into the bus, and another to claim that the bus is unsafe because the a/c doesn't work. In 1995, when people were dying, most of the buses either were not air conditioned or their air conditioning did not work (I think the only buses with working air conditioning were the 5300s, plus maybe any 5800s or 6000s that had been delivered at that point; New Looks were running into September). 5750: Seriously, how many heat stroke calls did CFD receive in 2015 compared to 1995?

Other than possibly 800 - 804, wasn't it 1973 before CTA's first A/C buses hit the streets?  I clearly remember the 100s, 300s, 3000s, 3300s, 3700s, 8700s and 5000s and the 6000s on the L with no A/C.  How did CTA ever survive? 

[Busjack]

Other than possibly 800 - 804, wasn't it 1973 before CTA's first A/C buses hit the streets?  I clearly remember the 100s, 300s, 3000s, 3300s, 3700s, 8700s and 5000s and the 6000s on the L with no A/C.  How did CTA ever survive? 

There were also a few air conditioned 3200s. Apparently, all the air conditioned buses were then used on the 111AX (not needed after the Dan Ryan L opened).

[sw4400]

As I said, we live in a lawsuit hungry society! The bus operator has a responsibility to make sure that bus is in safe working order to operate. Granted he is not a mechanic but If the a/c isn't working he of course has a duty to report it. Whether or not CTA actually does something about it, either way if a medical emergency were to arise. I wouldn't doubt that individual or their family would not only sue CTA but also the bus operator as well.

 

 

Yes we live in a lawsuit hungry society, but we also see cases dropped against individuals while their employers might still be held to some liabilities in situations like that after it's been established the individual did his part under the conditions he/she ACTUALLY COULD CONTROL. If everyone spent their days spooked of being held accountable for every little thing that is beyond their control, no one would be able to provide any kind of service at all. Everyone already agreed that yes the operator reports malfunctions on his bus that might affect safety. Once he does it's out of his hands. It's CTA Control's responsibility to respond as swiftly as the situation may allow. And even then, whatever Emergency maintenance vehicles may be closest, or replacement bus if the situation calls for it, don't have wings. They still have to operate in Chicago traffic also in getting to that operator.

We do live in a lawsuit hungry society, but truthfully both are correct.... jajuan, there is only so much the middle man can control. Using my job as an example, I can't control the price of a special like Honeydew, Cantaloupe, Pineapple and Watermelon chunks 3 for $12... those items only. You know how many times a customer would get angry when they tried to get Grapes in a bowl or Berries as the 3rd item, only to find out the register wouldn't give the sale, then got angry when we told and pointed out the sale to them. One lady got so angry about it she said that is false advertising and we have to give it to her, as she told me her attorney told her this, and she would be contacting Jewel about this. Ummm.... sale says 3 for $12 for certain items only!!! But they said just give it to her, as she regularly complains all the time about items with this story, just to get the item she wants for the price she wants.

CTA5750, whether it's a Bus Operator or a Customer Service Employee at a supermarket, there's only so much we can control....

[Busjack]

 

We do live in a lawsuit hungry society, but truthfully both are correct.... jajuan, there is only so much the middle man can control. Using my job as an example, I can't control the price of a special like Honeydew, Cantaloupe, Pineapple and Watermelon chunks 3 for $12... those items only. You know how many times a customer would get angry when they tried to get Grapes in a bowl or Berries as the 3rd item, only to find out the register wouldn't give the sale, then got angry when we told and pointed out the sale to them. One lady got so angry about it she said that is false advertising and we have to give it to her, as she told me her attorney told her this, and she would be contacting Jewel about this. Ummm.... sale says 3 for $12 for certain items only!!! But they said just give it to her, as she regularly complains all the time about items with this story, just to get the item she wants for the price she wants.

CTA5750, whether it's a Bus Operator or a Customer Service Employee at a supermarket, there's only so much we can control....

Since you bring up the OT, the problem with current Jewel management is that the deals in the weekly ad are so complex that nobody can understand them. The $3.00 off if you buy 6 seemingly unconnected items are the worst. This week there were 2 pages of them, and it was not indicated if you could take from both pages. Then they leave expired price tags on the shelves.

It used to be that if something didn't scan at the advertised or posted price, you would get it for free. At just about any store I go to, you have to argue with Customer Service, sometimes they go back to the shelf, and then they give you the price.

But that mentality is at CTA, too, from the discussion about the extra quarter to the Ventra ripoffs.

[andrethebusman]

There were also a few air conditioned 3200s. Apparently, all the air conditioned buses were then used on the 111AX (not needed after the Dan Ryan L opened).

When the Vincennes Express (111AX) started, it used mostly 100's (TDH5301's). The 10 A/C, highspeeds (800-804 TDH5303, 3240-3244 Flx) came a few months later. At first, these 10 were enough to run all service on the route, but soon additional trips were added, using regular 3000-3239 Flx's. On weekends the 10 a/c buses were used mostly on 52A-S Kedzie with strict orders (on paper!) not to use the a/c. But since these buses had normal opening windows, nobody was bothered by it. In 1965, nobody expected a/c on a Chicago bus. On a hot day, well, it was hot. The first large batch with a/c were the 1000-1524 T8H5307A's, but because the driver could turn the a/c on or off, more often than not it was off (makes bus a LOT slower), sealed windows or not. In time, the a/c stopped working anyway, because of Freon leaks that were nearly impossible to fix. The first group with a/c that was truly long-term dependable were the 5300-5769 Flx Metros.

[jajuan]

I remember the #7300's were real bad for letting exhaust fumes inside the bus. Their were many reports of operators feeling dizzy on those. I wonder how CTA got away with running those junk buses? At least the windows opened on those. If not they would have had alot of problems.

I wonder if that's why Americanas stayed on the 136 until the 7500s arrival even though the route had the accessible designation since shortly after CTA put chunk of 7300s at NP. 

I guess transportation services providers will never win.  If a vehicle shows up with no A/C, people will complain ans say things like "this vehicle shouldn't be on the street."  I think about how mad those same people would be if NO vehicle showed up and they were left stranded on a hot street or in the rain.  At least on the buses and trains there are hopper windows and roof hatches that open so that some semblance of air can get in.  Sometimes a malfunction occurs while the bus is on the street (the air was working then it conked out).  Sometimes depending on the number of buses in the shop, the non A/c buses are the safest to go out on the street if there is a shortage.  I'd rather see a vehicle with no A/C than no vehicle at all.

Good point. And you you're right that somehow CTA made it through the 70s and 80s and through Busjack's point into the mid 90s without very many air conditioned buses. Now as for the OT, yes Jewel's sales have gotten more complex especially with the Albertson's acquiring Safeway a little over a year after all the Dominick's closed and Albertson's taking on some of the same nutty ideas that doomed Dominick's like doing too many or two large of these buy X items save Y dollars sales (by the way the Open Nature and O Organics brands that replaced Jewel's former natural foods store brand Wild Harvest were previously sold in Chicago through Dominick's). In their defense, yes they do say mix or match but if that sale is too large and spread across several pages, some customers are going to be hesitant to think that you can mix or match the items from across those several pages even though you can. Bringing that down to a smaller a scale, with the pop just let folks have the sale price on ONE item. In this current phase of pushing folks to eat healthier what makes them, and I mean central office management, think everyone is going to want to buy three, four, or even five 2-liter bottles of pop at a time because that's how many they have to buy just to get the sale price and because that's how they run the pop sales all the time? Luck for them they still have the local market share to keep influencing that pack mentality among their competitors of "Jewel is doing it, so we're going to do it to" rather than it backfiring and going the other way.

[Busjack]

.... Now as for the OT, yes Jewel's sales have gotten more complex especially with the Albertson's acquiring Safeway a little over a year after all the Dominick's closed and Albertson's taking on some of the same nutty ideas that doomed Dominick's like doing too many or two large of these buy X items save Y dollars sales (by the way the Open Nature and O Organics brands that replaced Jewel's former natural foods store brand Wild Harvest were previously sold in Chicago through Dominick's)..... Luck for them they still have the local market share to keep influencing that pack mentality among their competitors of "Jewel is doing it, so we're going to do it to" rather than it backfiring and going the other way.

Most of the stuff started when Cerberus took over "New Albertson's" from Supervalu a couple of years ago. Before that, Jewel under Albertson's and Supervalu essentially had "10 for 10." Cerberus did make some improvements, such as allowing the fish department to cut fish, but also came up with all these weird combo deals (such as getting free hot dog buns if you buy vodka).

On your pop point, a checker at Jewel made some kind of comment about my buying 8 cases of diet 7 Up products, but I said, your ad said must buy 4 and maximum of 8. The stink with anyone running the "must buy 4" promotion is that they usually mix in some kind on the shelf that isn't part of the deal.

The only other chain I have seen advertise similar, but not as crazy, combination deals is Ultra. Mariano's seems to have good business by doing hardly any advertising. Someone told me the other day "I'll see you at Mariano's." and I said not that one, because they opened one closer to me, and not that long at that one, because they'll be opening another one even closer to me in a couple of weeks.

[jajuan]

Most of the stuff started when Cerberus took over "New Albertson's" from Supervalu a couple of years ago. Before that, Jewel under Albertson's and Supervalu essentially had "10 for 10." Cerberus did make some improvements, such as allowing the fish department to cut fish, but also came up with all these weird combo deals (such as getting free hot dog buns if you buy vodka).

On your pop point, a checker at Jewel made some kind of comment about my buying 8 cases of diet 7 Up products, but I said, your ad said must buy 4 and maximum of 8. The stink with anyone running the "must buy 4" promotion is that they usually mix in some kind on the shelf that isn't part of the deal.

The only other chain I have seen advertise similar, but not as crazy, combination deals is Ultra. Mariano's seems to have good business by doing hardly any advertising. Someone told me the other day "I'll see you at Mariano's." and I said not that one, because they opened one closer to me, and not that long at that one, because they'll be opening another one even closer to me in a couple of weeks.

Yeah it started with Cerberus taking over from Supervalu and got worse with the Safeway acquisition. Your 7 Up example reminded me that one thing they'll do that's goofy is one subset among that section will be on one sale, another subset of the same size might be on another and yet another subset is on a third sale tier. Now I will give them credit that the 3-day sales centered on weekends and tweeked from the $5 Fridays Dominick's used to give are good and smart moves. But it's like Cerberus has been questionable ideas, many of them old Safeway ones that helped kill Dominick's, and throwing them against that figurative wall to see what sticks and what doesn't.

[XE NewFlyer]

what will go to F when the #6400 buses are gone

[NewFlyerMCI]

what will go to F when the #6400 buses are gone

It will most likely be 1000's from primarily Chicago. However, you don't have to worry, as CTA has indicated numerous times, a 6400 isn't going to stop running 'till its gone.

[redline92]

It just hit me, the 6400 series are the only series to still use the classic push bars on the rear doors which I miss from the 80s and 90s era of CTA buses! lol

[Dawnlight]

Or another trick CTA may do is to give the 150 option to Kedzie and have them fork Flyers over to FG. (Only for 77th to snatch them away later on).  The only thing I can say about the 6400s is enjoy them while they last, and they are also the last buses in the CTA fleet to use flip-dot signs. RIP Flipdot Destination signs in 2016.

[jajuan]

Or another trick CTA may do is to give the 150 option to Kedzie and have them fork Flyers over to FG. (Only for 77th to snatch them away later on).  The only thing I can say about the 6400s is enjoy them while they last, and they are also the last buses in the CTA fleet to use flip-dot signs. RIP Flipdot Destination signs in 2016.

Oh even with the goofiness of how CTA has been handling the 6400s' retirement with things like the unprecedented moving of all 6400s from 77th before even one 7900 went into revenue service when no series has ever been removed from one of the garages it populated in significant numbers before the replacement series started coming in and FG having to contend with nothing but 6400s for over a year and a half, they've at least kept to the expected pattern of delivering 7900s to garages that had 6400s in significant numbers at one point in recent years. So it's quite fairly doubtful that Kedzie is going to see 7900s. Not during their time as new deliveries at least. 

[andrethebusman]

6518 is now sitting at W Shops, in a lot east side of Pulaski south of Maypole, totally stripped. Looks like might be in process of becoming a work bus, and conversion abandoned?

[NewFlyerMCI]

6518 is now sitting at W Shops, in a lot east side of Pulaski south of Maypole, totally stripped. Looks like might be in process of becoming a work bus, and conversion abandoned?

What does happen at West Shops?

[Busjack]

What does happen at West Shops?

Krambles's book indicated that as of 1992 it is mostly the maintenance of way shop.

[Busjack]

What does happen at West Shops?

Krambles's book indicated that as of 1992 it is mostly the maintenance of way shop.

According to a requisition for electrical work at West Shops, still the same thing: one building includes steel fabrication, frog shop,* substation maintenance, ironworkers, etc. Other is for maintenance of nonrevenue vehicles, elevator and escalator maintenance.

*Nothing to do with Kermit, but something having to do with rail intersections.

[andrethebusman]

West Shop is basically the rail side's facility for everything except passenger car maintenance. Lower 63rd is the materials storage yard, but otherwise all way & structures is based at West.

[MRChiCity]

Just saw 6665 going west bound on Davis displaying a "56 Milwaukee" on the over head sign.