Red Line Extension (RLE)

[Busjack]

2 hours ago, Sam92 said:

So in other words they just happen to be gentrifying soon as the red line gets extended ?

If that's the condition, it won't happen for 10 years. Also, if there is such a secret plan, there is going to be a stink, similar to that in Woodlawn and South Shore over a community protection agreement with the Obama Center.

An interesting aside, an article on 10th Ward alderperson Sadlowski-Garza said:

Quote

“The map that ... I worked out with my neighbors — when I got into the map room, there was no sign of it. ... They had me going 8.5 miles west — over the expressway, over the river and into Altgeld Gardens. You’re disenfranchising 4,500 people that are 8.5 miles away from my office that have zero way to get there because there’s no bus that runs down 130th Street,” she said [emphasis added].

 

 

 

[renardo870]

What are the plans for the existing 98th Street Yard once the Dan Ryan is extended to 130th and the new 120th Street Yard is in operation? What will be the total rail car capacity of the new yard?

Edited April 27, 2022 by renardo870
Added a question

[artthouwill]

4 hours ago, renardo870 said:

What are the plans for the existing 98th Street Yard once the Dan Ryan is extended to 130th and the new 120th Street Yard is in operation? What will be the total rail car capacity of the new yard?

That is a good question.   I would actually KEEP  98th Yard functioning

  cta could short turn some trains at 95th during peak times and keeping 97th Yard could alleviate some pressure from Howard Yard.  Remember there used to be a yard at Wilson before it was destroyed by fire.  I've never seen regular service trains short turn at Wilson though CTA did have Wilson signs on Red Line trains.  I believe Wilson was a short turn in emergencies or service interruptions.   I mentioned this to highlight there's precedent for having a midroute yard.

[Busjack]

1 hour ago, artthouwill said:

That is a good question.   I would actually KEEP  98th Yard functioning

  cta could short turn some trains at 95th during peak times and keeping 97th Yard could alleviate some pressure from Howard Yard.  Remember there used to be a yard at Wilson before it was destroyed by fire.  I've never seen regular service trains short turn at Wilson though CTA did have Wilson signs on Red Line trains.  I believe Wilson was a short turn in emergencies or service interruptions.   I mentioned this to highlight there's precedent for having a midroute yard.

There may be precedent, but precedent is against maintaining duplicate yard staff. Wilson Shops were there because that was the end of the line, and, as part of the HoDaR project, the shop was moved to Howard. Similarly, 61st Yard was closed, and the operation was moved to Racine. Most of Linden operations have also been moved to Howard. However, CTA, being its usual irresponsible self, let fire take care of the 61st and Wilson shops.

That doesn't deny the need for short turns, as someone else said about near Bryn Mawr, but CTA didn't keep the Jefferson Park yard either (which itself was inadequate, and would not have significantly helped Rosemont Yard), even though there are Jeff Pk. short turns.

[artthouwill]

1 hour ago, Busjack said:

There may be precedent, but precedent is against maintaining duplicate yard staff. Wilson Shops were there because that was the end of the line, and, as part of the HoDaR project, the shop was moved to Howard. Similarly, 61st Yard was closed, and the operation was moved to Racine. Most of Linden operations have also been moved to Howard. However, CTA, being its usual irresponsible self, let fire take care of the 61st and Wilson shops.

That doesn't deny the need for short turns, as someone else said about near Bryn Mawr, but CTA didn't keep the Jefferson Park yard either (which itself was inadequate, and would not have significantly helped Rosemont Yard), even though there are Jeff Pk. short turns.

Jefferson Park shops was in the middle of the Kennedy and basically the tracks for the expansion to O'Hare.   Prior to that, the West Northwest route still had Forest Park and 54th Yard.   Because of whereJefferson Park was located,  it would have been impossible to keep that yard and expand to O'Hare. 

Point about additional staffing noted  .  But there's no other use for 97th Tard space except green apace and maybe the removal of the bridge that runs over the WB i 94 exit to SB I 57.

[Busjack]

8 hours ago, artthouwill said:

Jefferson Park shops was in the middle of the Kennedy and basically the tracks for the expansion to O'Hare. 

True, but the middle track is still there and basically unused.

8 hours ago, artthouwill said:

But there's no other use for 97th Tard space except green apace and maybe the removal of the bridge that runs over the WB i 94 exit to SB I 57.

Exactly. There has always been that bottleneck, which could be relieved. Similarly, since the CA&E is no longer around, I don't see why the current plan is not to widrn the expressway east of Austin. But there seems to be enough swamp land at 120th to handle the yard.

https://goo.gl/maps/zzzYiwqkKgmmEsMF8

 

[Bus1883]

On 4/27/2022 at 7:47 PM, artthouwill said:

That is a good question.   I would actually KEEP  98th Yard functioning

  cta could short turn some trains at 95th during peak times and keeping 97th Yard could alleviate some pressure from Howard Yard.  Remember there used to be a yard at Wilson before it was destroyed by fire.  I've never seen regular service trains short turn at Wilson though CTA did have Wilson signs on Red Line trains.  I believe Wilson was a short turn in emergencies or service interruptions.   I mentioned this to highlight there's precedent for having a midroute yard.

I hope they do keep the yard up even when the project is completed in 2029. This can fit more extra cars to the line in any other needs

Edited May 3, 2022 by Bus1883

[strictures]

On 4/27/2022 at 9:52 PM, Busjack said:

There may be precedent, but precedent is against maintaining duplicate yard staff. Wilson Shops were there because that was the end of the line, and, as part of the HoDaR project, the shop was moved to Howard. Similarly, 61st Yard was closed, and the operation was moved to Racine. Most of Linden operations have also been moved to Howard. However, CTA, being its usual irresponsible self, let fire take care of the 61st and Wilson shops.

That doesn't deny the need for short turns, as someone else said about near Bryn Mawr, but CTA didn't keep the Jefferson Park yard either (which itself was inadequate, and would not have significantly helped Rosemont Yard), even though there are Jeff Pk. short turns.

I went past the 61st yard on Monday, all that was in was S-367, a crane.

[MetroShadow]

On 3/7/2022 at 6:05 AM, Sam92 said:

So in other words they just happen to be gentrifying soon as the red line gets extended ?

They won't be displaced, and that's the key operative phrase.

Gentrification is whatever it is, but the displacement part is up to the City Government not to foul up. Thats the nuance plenty of folks (in and out of the urbanism spaces) lose: 

Quote

 

 

[artthouwill]

9 hours ago, MetroShadow said:

They won't be displaced, and that's the key operative phrase.

Gentrification is whatever it is, but the displacement part is up to the City Government not to foul up. Thats the nuance plenty of folks (in and out of the urbanism spaces) lose: 

 

What is affordable housing?  There are plenty of cheap house for sale.  If people were educated. They could own a home and the mortgage would be way cheaper than rent.  Obviously these properties aren't in pristine condition but with work put into them.the value of the property increases.  Instead. Investors by them cheap, fix them up. And sell them for huge profit or rent them out for market value.  The fair market values along the Red Line South extension are no where close to the value of properties removed for the Brown line flyover.  There so much vacant property out south it isn't funny.  If just the properties eere filled. CHICAGO could stave off Houston from overtaking us as the nation's 3rd largest city.

[Busjack]

1 hour ago, artthouwill said:

  There so much vacant property out south it isn't funny.  If just the properties eere filled. CHICAGO could stave off Houston from overtaking us as the nation's 3rd largest city.

That's the whole problem on the south side, now especially in Roseland, where most of the RLE would be. The SSM was fixed 25 years ago and only now is there any development around 63rd and Cottage Grove and almost none anywhere north of there. The city and county own so much abandoned land that if people wanted to redevelop it, they could.

[strictures]

5 hours ago, Busjack said:

That's the whole problem on the south side, now especially in Roseland, where most of the RLE would be. The SSM was fixed 25 years ago and only now is there any development around 63rd and Cottage Grove and almost none anywhere north of there. The city and county own so much abandoned land that if people wanted to redevelop it, they could.

The city supposedly offered Costco a ton of free land on the South Side a number of years ago, but they turned it down.

[artthouwill]

3 hours ago, strictures said:

The city supposedly offered Costco a ton of free land on the South Side a number of years ago, but they turned it down.

Where on the south side?  

I guess Costco felt that the income level of the south side location wouldn't be profitable.   Considering there are no Sams Clubs on rhe south side save for the on in Evergreen Park. that might make sense.  Costcotends to build in higher income areas.  Eventhe 13th and Ashland store is near downtown, the near West side.and the Medical District.   Little Italy and Pilsen aren't poor neighborhoods either despite ABLA homes being nearby.

However,  if that free land was near 111th and I 94, Costco may have regrets as there seems to be a rebirth happening in Pullman.   I just don't know if Pullman would be enough to make a Costco profitable.   Hegewisch could help, but that would happen if the store was closer to or on 130th. 

[Busjack]

8 hours ago, artthouwill said:

However,  if that free land was near 111th and I 94, Costco may have regrets

You seem to have forgotten that Walmart took a lot of flack for going there.

[artthouwill]

41 minutes ago, Busjack said:

You seem to have forgotten that Walmart took a lot of flack for going there.

The City used to be anti "big box" store, but they saw how much revenue they were losing to Evergreen Park with their Walmart and Sams Club on the Evergreen Park side of the border with Chicago.  I'm still curious which south side site did Costco turn down?

[Mr.NewFlyer1051]

23 hours ago, artthouwill said:

The City used to be anti "big box" store, but they saw how much revenue they were losing to Evergreen Park with their Walmart and Sams Club on the Evergreen Park side of the border with Chicago.  I'm still curious which south side site did Costco turn down?

is it the one on Woodlawn/Doty where the walmart super center is?

[artthouwill]

2 hours ago, Mr.NewFlyer1051 said:

is it the one on Woodlawn/Doty where the walmart super center is?

I don't know. But there's plenty of vacant land on Doty Rd west  between 103rd and 130th.  There's also land on the old US Steel South Qorks property.  Those are the two largest tracts of vacant land on the south side. 

[andrethebusman]

There used to be midroute yards on most L lines. Replaced by terminal yards for convenience. Lake was at Hamlin, Douglas at 54th and at Pulaski, Garfield at Laramie. Wilson was actually a terminal yard for Wilson/Kenwood locals and Wilson-Loop expresses until 1949.

 

[andrethebusman]

Shortlining was also common until CTA reorganized the services. Lake had rush shorts to Hamlin and Austin, Douglas had all day shorts to Lawndale, Garfield had rush shorts to Lawndale. North-South services however were terminal to terminal except after AM rush some Jackson Park trains ended at 61st and some Englewood trains at 58th and laid up at 61st yard.

[Busjack]

Looks like CTA is making some serious progress. Besides the recent Board action authorizing staff to do property acquisition, there is a request for qualifications to do design-build services:

[Busjack]

City Council passed the TIF to pay the approx. 25% matching funds for the project (Sun-Times). Not really explained why the TIF is north of Pershing, but the implication is that even with Transit Oriented Development, Roseland isn't going to develop enough to pay for it. Another theory I heard was that the 120th yard would help the rest of the line.

[artthouwill]

28 minutes ago, Busjack said:

City Council passed the TIF to pay the approx. 25% matching funds for the project (Sun-Times). Not really explained why the TIF is north of Pershing, but the implication is that even with Transit Oriented Development, Roseland isn't going to develop enough to pay for it. Another theory I heard was that the 120th yard would help the rest of the line.

Let's see what is north of Pershing and within a mile of the Dan Ryan in each direction.   We have

1. Guarantee Rate Field 

2. McCormick Place 

3. Hyatt Regency McCormick 

4. MARRIOTT Marquis McCormick 

3. Winders Arena

6. Hilton Chicago 

7. Palmer House Hilton 

8. Union Station 

9. Soldier Field 

Those places can generate tax revenue individually better than Roseland can collectively.  

I found it funny that the article titled Daley talked about it but Lightfoot delivered.  Which Richie were they referring to?  If M, then Rahm was a do nothing.   If J, which I believe was being referenced,  then this certainly was a long overdue promise.  But we all know Lori won't be mayor next April.

 

[Busjack]

2 hours ago, artthouwill said:

Let's see what is north of Pershing and within a mile of the Dan Ryan in each direction.   We have

1. Guarantee Rate Field 

2. McCormick Place 

3. Hyatt Regency McCormick 

4. MARRIOTT Marquis McCormick 

3. Winders Arena

6. Hilton Chicago 

7. Palmer House Hilton 

8. Union Station 

9. Soldier Field 

Those places can generate tax revenue individually better than Roseland can collectively.  

I found it funny that the article titled Daley talked about it but Lightfoot delivered.  Which Richie were they referring to?  If M, then Rahm was a do nothing.   If J, which I believe was being referenced,  then this certainly was a long overdue promise.  But we all know Lori won't be mayor next April.

 

You don't seem to understand what a TIF district is. As the city says:

Quote

...Funds are generated by growth in the Equalized Assessed Valuation (EAV) of properties within a designated district over a period of 23 years. ... When an area is declared a TIF district, the amount of property tax the area generates is set as a base EAV amount. As property values increase, all property tax growth above that amount can be used to fund redevelopment projects within the district. The increase, or increment, can be used to pay back bonds issued to pay upfront costs, or can be used on a pay-as-you-go basis for individual projects.

It's growth in property taxes--not sales, hotel, or admissions taxes. Most of the places you listed (Guaranteed Rate Field, McCormick Place, Wintrust Arena, Soldier Field, Union Station) don't pay property taxes. The hotels'  property assessments may go up, but probably not because they are getting Red Line riders from south of 95th.

As that page points out, the usual use of TIF funds is to remedy blight in the district. The only reason the city is doing it (as implied by Brookins) is that the state did not come up with the money, so it authorized 4 transit TIFs (CMAP reference). CMAP points out that these are technically Transit Facility Improvement Areas (TFIA), and could apply to the whole Red Line and the Forest Park Blue Line.

[artthouwill]

39 minutes ago, Busjack said:

You don't seem to understand what a TIF district is. As the city says:

It's growth in property taxes--not sales, hotel, or admissions taxes. Most of the places you listed (Guaranteed Rate Field, McCormick Place, Wintrust Arena, Soldier Field, Union Station) don't pay property taxes. The hotels'  property assessments may go up, but probably not because they are getting Red Line riders from south of 95th.

As that page points out, the usual use of TIF funds is to remedy blight in the district. The only reason the city is doing it (as implied by Brookins) is that the state did not come up with the money, so it authorized 4 transit TIFs (CMAP reference). CMAP points out that these are technically Transit Facility Improvement Areas (TFIA), and could apply to the whole Red Line and the Forest Park Blue Line.

O do understand what a TIF district is.  Maybe you can explain what kind of tax revenue Roseland could generate that could pay for anything.

[Busjack]

3 hours ago, artthouwill said:

O do understand what a TIF district is.  Maybe you can explain what kind of tax revenue Roseland could generate that could pay for anything.

If you go back to my original post, I concluded that it couldn't. But that's contrary to the theory of a TFIA, as explained in the CMAP page:

Quote

Property owners often benefit from the construction of new or improved transit through increased rents, sales, and land values. Value capture levies taxes or fees to utilize a portion of these benefits to pay for the cost of the transit improvement.

Now, if you take the north side TIF, the area around Bryn Mawr has gone downhill, but maybe the RPM, including the new station, encourages new development, so the TIF captures that value. There once was a business district on Michigan Ave. in Roseland, including a Turnstyle, which is now vacant land where a station is planned. Theoretically, that would be developed and generate revenue. Instead, this plan assumes $900 some million value added in downtown, Armour Square, Bronzeville, and Chinatown to build something 7 miles south. While Dowell seems incorrect in claiming that residents in those wards will be directly paying those costs, it would be mere fortuity rather than cause and effect for that to happen. Maybe The 78 is included in that calculation, but that increment may already have been siphoned off.