Red Line Extension (RLE)

[mahatta]

13 hours ago, strictures said:

Illinois isn't undertaxed & the state isn't broke because of taxes.   Illinois taxes are far too high now, especially when you take into account the obscene local real estate taxes we have to pay & the even worse, corruption tax we pay, because Illinois is without a doubt the most corrupt state in the country!   Illinois is broke because of that insane pension clause which prevents government pensions from being adjusted when the state's finances are bad, due to either downturns in the economy, people & companies leaving the state for greener pastures, but in this case, having to pay defined benefit pensions at a mandatory 3% COLA increase every year, even when Social Security has a COLA of zero!

We also have too damned many government employees.   If you don't believe that, go to any of the large Secretary of State offices for driver's licenses & car registrations, where there are dozens just pushing paper.   Then we have 7,000 units of government, more than California & Texas combined, which have about four times the population than Illinois.

The other states with pension problems don't have this clause.  And it was the four Democrats on the state supreme court which has ruled every attempt to modify the pensions unconstitutional.   The fact that they have an inherent conflict of interest in the case, due to the fact that they too will get state pensions, apparently doesn't bother them.

Illinois only has high property taxes because of its extremely low income tax, and its income tax is only extremely low because it's a flat tax. New York's top marginal income tax bracket is 8.82%. California's is 13.3%. Taxing the ultra-wealthy is by far the easiest way to raise revenue, but Illinois refuses to do this and has to make up the difference via property tax, sales tax, and not paying its bills.

Illinois actually has one of the smallest state governments per capita in the country: 205 state employees per 10k population (source: http://www.governing.com/gov-data/public-workforce-salaries/states-most-government-workers-public-employees-by-job-type.html). The smallest state government is Michigan's (184 employees per 10k population), the largest is Wyoming's (446). New York is number three, at 316, and California is towards the middle at 228.

The pension thing is only a crisis, as opposed to a serious but surmountable problem, because Illinois is so low tax.

[jajuan]

Okay how did this turn into a rehash of the Gray Line proposal that is long dead? The costs outweigh the benefits, so please let it stay dead and in the graveyard where it belongs. Geez. As pointed out by Busjack himself, he only quoted those numbers to highlight how little the demand is for current ME services that the Gray Line would replace. 

[mahatta]

1 hour ago, jajuan said:

Okay how did this turn into a rehash of the Gray Line proposal that is long dead? The costs outweigh the benefits, so please let it stay dead and in the graveyard where it belongs. Geez. As pointed out by Busjack himself, he only quoted those numbers to highlight how little the demand is for current ME services that the Gray Line would replace. 

Of course there's no demand for a train that only comes once an hour most of the day. If the rest of the L adhered to the Metra schedule you'd see similarly pathetic ridership numbers.

The benefits of the gray line are more or less the same as the benefits of the red line extension, and the cost is substantially less.

[MTRSP1900-CTA3200]

3 hours ago, jajuan said:

Okay how did this turn into a rehash of the Gray Line proposal that is long dead? The costs outweigh the benefits, so please let it stay dead and in the graveyard where it belongs. Geez. As pointed out by Busjack himself, he only quoted those numbers to highlight how little the demand is for current ME services that the Gray Line would replace. 

Yeah, I just scrolled up to the title of this thread and I’m totally lost now.

[Busjack]

18 hours ago, jajuan said:

Okay how did this turn into a rehash of the Gray Line proposal that is long dead? The costs outweigh the benefits, so please let it stay dead and in the graveyard where it belongs. Geez. As pointed out by Busjack himself, he only quoted those numbers to highlight how little the demand is for current ME services that the Gray Line would replace. 

 

14 hours ago, MTRSP1900-CTA3200 said:

Yeah, I just scrolled up to the title of this thread and I’m totally lost now.

Apparently we attracted a [fill in the blank] whom I strung along too long challenging his very unsupported assertions, until I finally challenged him to come up with a business case, something he can't do, nor continually argue about. As the two of you indicated above, maybe ignoring it would have been the better course.

[Busjack]

CTA Press Release:

MAYOR RAHM EMANUEL won't be at the opening of the 130th St. station.

[artthouwill]

2 hours ago, Busjack said:

CTA Press Release:

MAYOR RAHM EMANUEL won't be at the opening of the 130th St. station.

At least not as mayor.   Probably not at all.  Now we have to  see how long will  his service improvements last.  

[Busjack]

1 hour ago, artthouwill said:

At least not as mayor.   Probably not at all.  Now we have to  see how long will  his service improvements last.  

...and who  campaigns at  the 95th station on the basis that it is being rebuilt. I bet no one.

[BusHunter]

Looks like the RLE has moved to the next level.

https://news.wttw.com/2020/02/10/long-awaited-cta-red-line-extension-moves-forward-new-38m-contract

[artthouwill]

55 minutes ago, BusHunter said:

Looks like the RLE has moved to the next level.

https://news.wttw.com/2020/02/10/long-awaited-cta-red-line-extension-moves-forward-new-38m-contract

Article dated February 2020

[BusHunter]

1 hour ago, artthouwill said:

Article dated February 2020

Its news to me. Theres been so much talk about corona, we forget theres still a whole other world out there to explore. 

[Tcmetro]

This CMAP presentation from last week shows that CTA is now considering locating the 130th St Station on the south side of the street, directly adjacent to Altgeld Gardens. The current plan (from the 2016 EIS) is for the station to be on the north side of the street. This is now possible because some buildings at Altgeld have been removed by CHA.

https://www.cmap.illinois.gov/documents/10180/1110044/PR_20200918_RLE+CMAP+Trans+Comm+MTG_Final_novideo.pdf/ff1cde15-e2eb-844b-a1ee-58176c5dc4d2

[artthouwill]

4 hours ago, Tcmetro said:

This CMAP presentation from last week shows that CTA is now considering locating the 130th St Station on the south side of the street, directly adjacent to Altgeld Gardens. The current plan (from the 2016 EIS) is for the station to be on the north side of the street. This is now possible because some buildings at Altgeld have been removed by CHA.

https://www.cmap.illinois.gov/documents/10180/1110044/PR_20200918_RLE+CMAP+Trans+Comm+MTG_Final_novideo.pdf/ff1cde15-e2eb-844b-a1ee-58176c5dc4d2

I would assume the yard would still be north of 130th

[BusHunter]

On 9/26/2020 at 1:32 PM, artthouwill said:

I would assume the yard would still be north of 130th

Supposed to be at 120th, the yard. How are they going to incorporate a transit center at altgeld gardens? They have space to do that? Plus would anyone feel safe riding a train to a low income housing area? 

[Busjack]

42 minutes ago, BusHunter said:

....How are they going to incorporate a transit center at altgeld gardens? They have space to do that? Plus would anyone feel safe riding a train to a low income housing area? 

1. They said the station would be south of 130th. Not clear if there  is still supposed to be a South Shore station connecting with it there.

2. Maybe somewhat facetiously, what L line isn't in a low income area? Of course, I'm sure that nobody figured that the 63/Ashland terminal would now be in a wasteland. 63/Cottage Grove is only now being redeveloped. Howard is not demographically what it used to be.

[NewFlyerMCI]

1 hour ago, BusHunter said:

Supposed to be at 120th, the yard. How are they going to incorporate a transit center at altgeld gardens? They have space to do that? Plus would anyone feel safe riding a train to a low income housing area? 

I mean, with that last point, entire branches of  L lines could just shut down overnight, since it would be unsafe to ride a train to a low income housing area ?

[artthouwill]

1 hour ago, BusHunter said:

Supposed to be at 120th, the yard. How are they going to incorporate a transit center at altgeld gardens? They have space to do that? Plus would anyone feel safe riding a train to a low income housing area? 

I don't know why I envision the station on the north side of 130rh since there seems to be more vacant land there.  But the L tracks and the UP tracks are west of Altgeld Gardens.   If there were to be a South Shore connection,  it would have to be near 120th as the South Shore tracks cross 130th east of Altgeld Gardens. 

In most xases, the L was built well before public housing so it us what it is .  There's Eden Green Apartments west if the tracks and there are homes South if the Gardens.  

I would imagine most Hegewisch residents would continue to use the South Shore. 

[Sam92]

2 hours ago, BusHunter said:

Supposed to be at 120th, the yard. How are they going to incorporate a transit center at altgeld gardens? They have space to do that? Plus would anyone feel safe riding a train to a low income housing area? 

If someone can ride to 95th it won't be any different going further. Some of those guys posted come from further in Roseland if they aren't from Princeton Park. 

[MetroShadow]

On 2/18/2022 at 5:03 PM, BusHunter said:

Supposed to be at 120th, the yard. How are they going to incorporate a transit center at altgeld gardens? They have space to do that? Plus would anyone feel safe riding a train to a low income housing area? 

Everyone deserves transit, especially those in low-income areas.

[BusHunter]

7 hours ago, MetroShadow said:

Everyone deserves transit, especially those in low-income areas.

Seems they are catering to that location. It would be different if it was united center or soldier field but if you dont live there you wouldnt want to go there. Id be a fan of a stop that serves the south shore line. That would make it whats its supposed to be serving the masses instead of someones house.

[Busjack]

3 hours ago, BusHunter said:

Seems they are catering to that location. It would be different if it was united center or soldier field but if you dont live there you wouldnt want to go there. Id be a fan of a stop that serves the south shore line. That would make it whats its supposed to be serving the masses instead of someones house.

Man, this is bass ackward. Transit is supposed to get people from home to where they are going. In the case of RLE, that usually involves a long bus trip.

Only relevance of a South Shore station is to serve people having a final destination south of 57th St. North of there, they can stay on the South Shore train.

[NewFlyerMCI]

5 hours ago, BusHunter said:

Seems they are catering to that location. It would be different if it was united center or soldier field but if you dont live there you wouldnt want to go there. Id be a fan of a stop that serves the south shore line. That would make it whats its supposed to be serving the masses instead of someones house.

 

1 hour ago, Busjack said:

Man, this is bass ackward. Transit is supposed to get people from home to where they are going. In the case of RLE, that usually involves a long bus trip.

Only relevance of a South Shore station is to serve people having a final destination south of 57th St. North of there, they can stay on the South Shore train.

Adding to (what I'm assuming his is point, unless I'm interpreting wrong), not everyone in that area needs to go downtown (or to Hyde Park), which would be the only purpose of the SSL. W/o fare integration, SSL (& Metra) is a waste of money since they'll still need to transfer, an issue that won't arise if they just take the Red Line.

Also, any transit center that tried to encourage transfers btwn SSL & Red Line is gonna fall short; the only people who'd use that is people who might work on the northside, and there's no benefit to transferring at 130th over Millennium Station

[artthouwill]

3 minutes ago, NewFlyerMCI said:

 

Adding to (what I'm assuming his is point, unless I'm interpreting wrong), not everyone in that area needs to go downtown (or to Hyde Park), which would be the only purpose of the SSL. W/o fare integration, SSL (& Metra) is a waste of money since they'll still need to transfer, an issue that won't arise if they just take the Red Line.

Also, any transit center that tried to encourage transfers btwn SSL & Red Line is gonna fall short; the only people who'd use that is people who might work on the northside, and there's no benefit to transferring at 130th over Millennium Station

The only reason I can think of for a South Shore/Red Line transfer station is for people South of 57th who need a connection between the 2 lines to ride between the south side and Indiana.  At one time, inner city passengers bound for Indiana  ( and vice versa) could use the Kensington station but that was eliminated by NICTD.  People  including myself used to use Kensington regularly as my destination was  87th.  It was painful to ride to 57th and then gave to head back south, or ride north to 57th and then take the South Shore back South.  

I don't know why NICTD eliminated Kensington.   Perhaps their trains were interfering with Metra Electric trains?  Most of the outbound SS trains used the inbound track at Kensington rather than the outbound track.  Maybe SS passengers complained about stopping at Kensington station because they felt a certain way tiqard the boarding demographic there.  If that was the case, they certainly wouldn't be happy about a Red Line transfer station.   It's odd that people would complain about stopping at Kensington but not 57tg (Museum and U of Cnoted).

 

[Busjack]

47 minutes ago, artthouwill said:

The only reason I can think of for a South Shore/Red Line transfer station is for people South of 57th who need a connection between the 2 lines to ride between the south side and Indiana.  At one time, inner city passengers bound for Indiana  ( and vice versa) could use the Kensington station but that was eliminated by NICTD.  People  including myself used to use Kensington regularly as my destination was  87th.  It was painful to ride to 57th and then gave to head back south, or ride north to 57th and then take the South Shore back South.  

I don't know why NICTD eliminated Kensington.   Perhaps their trains were interfering with Metra Electric trains?  Most of the outbound SS trains used the inbound track at Kensington rather than the outbound track.  Maybe SS passengers complained about stopping at Kensington station because they felt a certain way tiqard the boarding demographic there.  If that was the case, they certainly wouldn't be happy about a Red Line transfer station.   It's odd that people would complain about stopping at Kensington but not 57tg (Museum and U of Cnoted).

 

I was going to say what you said in the first paragraph.

On the second, NICTD was fairly clear that the reason was that the new connection directly to the easternmost track bypassed the Kensington station, and the few passengers using Kensington didn't justify doing anything about it.

[MetroShadow]

11 hours ago, Busjack said:

Man, this is bass ackward. Transit is supposed to get people from home to where they are going. In the case of RLE, that usually involves a long bus trip.

Only relevance of a South Shore station is to serve people having a final destination south of 57th St. North of there, they can stay on the South Shore train.

Bingo. Taking any of the buses to 95th is far too long (even with Pulse), even with the elimination of the 104 and no express route could replace what rail would be able to do (even if your final destination isn't downtown). 

If I can get folx off of 57 and 94 and get them on a train (even if they're living beyond 130th, Riverdale, Dolton, Cal City, etc), then the ROI is worth its weight in gold. The midwest has a problem with being car-centric; and the Far South has been neglected too often that it becomes symbolic of a lack of investment to the hood. We have to do better than that.