More Bus Moves

[andrethebusman]

But it says convert 33 of the 67 diesels so that statement works against it seeing as it was 100 buses in all which 33 were already hybrids. Plus this order was picked up from what Seattle didnt end up wanting and I think the order was as it came in when CTA took over contract.

For the life of me I can't find anything on Durbin's site that refers to this. Can somebody point it out?

[Sam92]

For the life of me I can't find anything on Durbin's site that refers to this. Can somebody point it out?

Well idk I was going off what another poster mentioned and it said "convert 33 of 67 diesels to hybrid". Idk what the source was I just bout it up cause didnt seem to fit what was said about the 4300's originally being an all diesel order because the order was always announced as 33 hybrids and 67 diesels takin from.an unwanted Seattle contract. I do remember a Durbin grant for 30 hybrids being mentioned but wasnt involved with the 4300's as far as I remember.

[Busjack]

Well idk I was going off what another poster mentioned and it said "convert 33 of 67 diesels to hybrid". Idk what the source was I just bout it up cause didnt seem to fit what was said about the 4300's originally being an all diesel order because the order was always announced as 33 hybrids and 67 diesels takin from.an unwanted Seattle contract. I do remember a Durbin grant for 30 hybrids being mentioned but wasnt involved with the 4300's as far as I remember.

The way I figure it is that 150 were on a lease from Traxis (4000-4149), and 58 were ARRA-TIGER (4150-4207). So, what else would those 33 be, other than 4300-4332?

For the life of me I can't find anything on Durbin's site that refers to this. Can somebody point it out?

I posted the link in my prior message. Can't you even click?

[BusHunter]

Looks like another 3 garage swap. Maybe the #4390's and #4340's are at np now. I can't seem to find those on the tracker.

#4392's on the #152. Ball game extra out of North Park.

[ChicagoNova]

Well idk I was going off what another poster mentioned and it said "convert 33 of 67 diesels to hybrid". Idk what the source was I just bout it up cause didnt seem to fit what was said about the 4300's originally being an all diesel order because the order was always announced as 33 hybrids and 67 diesels takin from.an unwanted Seattle contract. I do remember a Durbin grant for 30 hybrids being mentioned but wasnt involved with the 4300's as far as I remember.

I would think that all 100 of those artics should've been hybrid.

[wordguy]

Looks like another 3 garage swap. Maybe the #4390's and #4340's are at np now. I can't seem to find those on the tracker.

The transplanted 4300s are probably operating on the Blue Line Shuttle over the weekend.

[geneking7320]

I saw some 4300's working the Orange Line shuttle but didn't get the last two digits.

[artthouwill]

How is that? Are you so antibusiness that a company that provides a quality product shouldn't be able to make enough money to pay its suppliers and employees? Are you engaged in a trade (you said you were) without any expectation of paying your bills?

The Fresh Moves business model proved that it did not work. I don't know how the Whole Foods business model works in Englewood when nothing else does, but it is their business to figure that out. But if you figure that only those like the guy at King Dr. and 71st are entitled to be there and give away food to you, there is no ground to complain about food deserts.

Like I have frequently noted, there is no lack of ethnic produce markets on the north side, including those willing to take over Dominick's. There once was a new Dominick's at Roosevelt and Kedzie; it went out of business way before their other 72 stores did. I still think that it is consumer attitudes that also have an effect on why basically nobody wants to set up shop on the south side other than in Bronzeville and Hyde Park.

To an extent consumer attitudes have an effect on why a lot of business don't set up shop on the south side, but usually its more the attitude of the businesses. Walmart saw an opportunity and is taking full advantage of it. Consumers want good products at reasonable prices. Small businesses that set up shop usually have higher expenses (insurance, etc) which means they have to usually charge higher prices. Dominick's was one of the highest priced stores in the area, which is why its stores at Roosevelt/kedzie, 79th/Wentworth, and on 165th in Hammond didn't last long. I especially remember the Hammond store and how short lived it was, especially when there was Ultra, Sterks, VAntils (which were all established and nearby). Food4Less was able to come in and establish itself there.

We bemoan people who don't eat healthy, but isn't it ironic that the most healthy stuff is also the most expensive? How is it that foods sprayed with pesticides and other things are CHEAPER than organic? I know that fruits and vegetables and meats tend to have a shorter shelf life, but the few big stores on the South side do offer them. Like I said before, Whole Foods setting up shop at 63rd & Halsted in indicative of a looming regentrifacation, meaning the Englewood area is ripe for an influx of investors (or whites) buying property cheap and taking up residence, thereby property taxes will go up significantly enough to chase the rest of the poor out. A Link card will not go far at all at Whole Foods. So I believe that is where Garmon's slap in the face comment is coming from (though I will let him explain himself). That new store is not for the benefit of the community as presently constiuted,.

The question is why didn't the Fresh Moves model work? How often was the bus made available? Was it available on weekends or the 1st of the month? Could consumers use Link cards or were they forced to pay cash? How reasonable were the prices compared to a grocery store? Was there sufficient information given ahead of time of where the bus would be on a given day and time?

I can't really do this in Oak Park, but I know I can go to the 'hood and just about every Arab-owned store would sell me four or five small bags of Cheetos Flamin Hots for $1.00. I can get a 2 litre RC or Crush for 99 cents or less. Thus consumers will buy what they can afford. To bring this back to transit, even though there are more Metra stations in the inner city on the South Side than any other part of the city, most in city stations on lines not named Metra Electric do quite well, like GAlewood (MD-West), Rogers Park and Ravenswood (UP-N), Jefferson Park (UP-NW) to name a few, even though CTA services are available. Those people choose Metra because they can AFFORD to Oak Park's Metra station does quite well even though CTA does well at the same Harlem station..

[BusHunter]

The transplanted 4300s are probably operating on the Blue Line Shuttle over the weekend.

No blue line shuttle this week, this morning they were moving the future Bloomingdale trail bridge transferring the Ashland/Bloomingdale bridge to Western. Western's closed all day, can't run a shuttle with no street!! I went to check out the move and there were guys from DNA.info interviewing me, and several people with tripods recording the move on Western, so I guess they have the story on that or they will.

[BusHunter]

#4350 and #4390's at NP now.

[garmon757]

How is that? Are you so antibusiness that a company that provides a quality product shouldn't be able to make enough money to pay its suppliers and employees? Are you engaged in a trade (you said you were) without any expectation of paying your bills?

The Fresh Moves business model proved that it did not work. I don't know how the Whole Foods business model works in Englewood when nothing else does, but it is their business to figure that out. But if you figure that only those like the guy at King Dr. and 71st are entitled to be there and give away food to you, there is no ground to complain about food deserts.

Like I have frequently noted, there is no lack of ethnic produce markets on the north side, including those willing to take over Dominick's. There once was a new Dominick's at Roosevelt and Kedzie; it went out of business way before their other 72 stores did. I still think that it is consumer attitudes that also have an effect on why basically nobody wants to set up shop on the south side other than in Bronzeville and Hyde Park.

To an extent consumer attitudes have an effect on why a lot of business don't set up shop on the south side, but usually its more the attitude of the businesses. Walmart saw an opportunity and is taking full advantage of it. Consumers want good products at reasonable prices. Small businesses that set up shop usually have higher expenses (insurance, etc) which means they have to usually charge higher prices. Dominick's was one of the highest priced stores in the area, which is why its stores at Roosevelt/kedzie, 79th/Wentworth, and on 165th in Hammond didn't last long. I especially remember the Hammond store and how short lived it was, especially when there was Ultra, Sterks, VAntils (which were all established and nearby). Food4Less was able to come in and establish itself there.

We bemoan people who don't eat healthy, but isn't it ironic that the most healthy stuff is also the most expensive? How is it that foods sprayed with pesticides and other things are CHEAPER than organic? I know that fruits and vegetables and meats tend to have a shorter shelf life, but the few big stores on the South side do offer them. Like I said before, Whole Foods setting up shop at 63rd & Halsted in indicative of a looming regentrifacation, meaning the Englewood area is ripe for an influx of investors (or whites) buying property cheap and taking up residence, thereby property taxes will go up significantly enough to chase the rest of the poor out. A Link card will not go far at all at Whole Foods. So I believe that is where Garmon's slap in the face comment is coming from (though I will let him explain himself). That new store is not for the benefit of the community as presently constiuted,.

The question is why didn't the Fresh Moves model work? How often was the bus made available? Was it available on weekends or the 1st of the month? Could consumers use Link cards or were they forced to pay cash? How reasonable were the prices compared to a grocery store? Was there sufficient information given ahead of time of where the bus would be on a given day and time?

I can't really do this in Oak Park, but I know I can go to the 'hood and just about every Arab-owned store would sell me four or five small bags of Cheetos Flamin Hots for $1.00. I can get a 2 litre RC or Crush for 99 cents or less. Thus consumers will buy what they can afford. To bring this back to transit, even though there are more Metra stations in the inner city on the South Side than any other part of the city, most in city stations on lines not named Metra Electric do quite well, like GAlewood (MD-West), Rogers Park and Ravenswood (UP-N), Jefferson Park (UP-NW) to name a few, even though CTA services are available. Those people choose Metra because they can AFFORD to Oak Park's Metra station does quite well even though CTA does well at the same Harlem station..

It's pretty much self explanatory even though artthouwill just pretty much said it all. I can't say it any better than him. I didn't say my comment to be antibusiness. It's the simple fact how our people of the south side represent in this city.

[Busjack]

I would think that all 100 of those artics should've been hybrid.

Well that was the question when some leaker posted the 33/67 split, and my reaction was that CTA claims to be so clean that it would only order hybrid artics. Turns out that was wrong.

[Busjack]

To an extent consumer attitudes have an effect on why a lot of business don't set up shop on the south side, but usually its more the attitude of the businesses. Walmart saw an opportunity and is taking full advantage of it. Consumers want good products at reasonable prices. Small businesses that set up shop usually have higher expenses (insurance, etc) which means they have to usually charge higher prices. Dominick's was one of the highest priced stores in the area, which is why its stores at Roosevelt/kedzie, 79th/Wentworth, and on 165th in Hammond didn't last long. I especially remember the Hammond store and how short lived it was, especially when there was Ultra, Sterks, VAntils (which were all established and nearby). Food4Less was able to come in and establish itself there.

... A Link card will not go far at all at Whole Foods. So I believe that is where Garmon's slap in the face comment is coming from (though I will let him explain himself). That new store is not for the benefit of the community as presently constiuted,.

The question is why didn't the Fresh Moves model work? How often was the bus made available? Was it available on weekends or the 1st of the month? Could consumers use Link cards or were they forced to pay cash? How reasonable were the prices compared to a grocery store? Was there sufficient information given ahead of time of where the bus would be on a given day and time?

I can't really do this in Oak Park, but I know I can go to the 'hood and just about every Arab-owned store would sell me four or five small bags of Cheetos Flamin Hots for $1.00. ...

You finally said what I was going to, but was afraid of being flamed. There has to be a reason why there basically are only Arab owed stores selling flaming Cheetos, high fructose pop and liquor. Theoretically, Link Cards don't pay for that.

Oak Park is getting a Pete's Fresh Market in its old Dominck's, so Pete seems to think he can do business there, as he thinks he can do at Madison and Western. I don't know how Whole Foods thinks it can do business in Englewood, but as I said, it is their business decision. It was obvious from the start that Safeway didn't know how to operate in Chicago. I doubt that Albertson's and SuperValu did either. But those are also their business decisions.

And by bringing up Walmart, you seem to forget that just about every power that be tried to keep them out of Stewart and Pullman Park.

I don't expect a Jewel or Mariano's on every corner, but since you brought up the Arabs, there must be some reason why the produce markets run by Greeks, Italians, Hispanics, etc. won't move into there, but they snatched up Dominick's on the north side and suburbs when they became available (except for the one at 71st and Jeffery, which, reportedly, no one will take).

It's pretty much self explanatory even though artthouwill just pretty much said it all. I can't say it any better than him. I didn't say my comment to be antibusiness. It's the simple fact how our people of the south side represent in this city.

I don't think it explains it, unless you can explain why only having the Arab markets somehow serves your community. I think that art did point out that sending a bus once a week with some produce won't.

I think you are just like many who think that any intrusion into your turf has to be fought (exemplified by those who fight the U of C, Walmart, Target going into Cabrini-Green, etc.)

Like I said, if Whole Foods at that location goes out of business, that's on their shareholders, but if the community (where most of the land has been leveled) is insulted to have them there, don't complain about food deserts.

Seriously speaking: Do you really think that the federal government can set up a grocery store there and make it work? Or that is the role of government?

[jajuan]

OK I wasn't going to get into this but I have to ask this. How the heck is it Busjack that you can see Art's point but you insist on continuing attacking Garmon as being antibusiness even though he just said to you his point was what Art sxvellently fleshed out? I get what he's saying without him having to flesh out beyond what Art already has. But since you wish to keep your blinders on I'll repeat what Art already said. Part of the issue might be community attitude but a larger part of it is what some don't wish to come out and acknowledge which is it's also in large part the attitudes of the businesses toward those south side communities. Yeah the unions fought the city Walmart stores but it was those Jewel and Dominick's parent company execs who compounded an already sticky situation by assuming they couldn't get business in much of the south side (in Jewel's case it was SuperValu's lousy businesa decisions not Albertson's) which is ludicrous. If the Jewel on Ashland and Roosevelt can do somewhat decent business with a customer base about half of which if not more are low income because UIC students and staff aren't doing all that shopping, then the opportunity was there on the south side for more than just Walmart but went ignored by SuperValu and Safeway execs. Plus I think the other side of his slap in the face comment is that Walmart has earned the reputation of giving those cheaper prices that undercuts the competition at the expense of keeping their workers wages low enough to the point that all the rest of us still get hit further in the pocket than we realize by paying taxes that go to welfare benefits for a good chunk of Walmart's work force.

[Busjack]

...which is it's also in large part the attitudes of the businesses toward those south side communities. Yeah the unions fought the city Walmart stores but it was those Jewel and Dominick's parent company execs who compounded an already sticky situation by assuming they couldn't get business in much of the south side (in Jewel's case it was SuperValu's lousy businesa decisions not Albertson's) which is ludicrous....

If you had read what I said, I said that I don't think Safeway and SuperValu knew how to do business either, and I said that I didn't expect Jewel and Mariano's on every street corner.

But the attitude of "big business" does not fully explain it. Other than the 2 Walmarts, the city giving the land at 69th and Ashland to Food-4-Less, and the Arabs, nobody wants to do business there. I don't think that the corporate boardrooms govern Tony's (which took over the Dominick's on Foster), Cermak (which took over the Dominick's on Damen north of Devon), Pete's (which took over the Dominick's in Oak Park), Shop and Save (which took over the Dominick's on Nagle), etc. Some of the Dominick's in the north suburbs were taken over by similar operators (Caputo's, Garden Fresh, Butera), while others were taken over by higher end markets (Heinen's).

However, nobody wants to set up shop on the south side. It was reported that the Dominick's on 71st needs $6 million of new equipment, which seems prohibitive, but is anyone else moving into South Shore? I'm not limiting that to Heinen's, Whole Foods, Fresh Market, and Mariano's, but any produce merchant?

[ChicagoNova]

Well that was the question when some leaker posted the 33/67 split, and my reaction was that CTA claims to be so clean that it would only order hybrid artics. Turns out that was wrong.

Between the day all the NABI artics were pulled from service and the day I read for the first time that CTA was going to purchase 33 hybrid artics and 67 clean diesel artics, I thought the all-artic-hybrid rule was the rule.

[jajuan]

If you had read what I said, I said that I don't think Safeway and SuperValu knew how to do business either, and I said that I didn't expect Jewel and Mariano's on every street corner.

But the attitude of "big business" does not fully explain it. Other than the 2 Walmarts, the city giving the land at 69th and Ashland to Food-4-Less, and the Arabs, nobody wants to do business there. I don't think that the corporate boardrooms govern Tony's (which took over the Dominick's on Foster), Cermak (which took over the Dominick's on Damen north of Devon), Pete's (which took over the Dominick's in Oak Park), Shop and Save (which took over the Dominick's on Nagle), etc. Some of the Dominick's in the north suburbs were taken over by similar operators (Caputo's, Garden Fresh, Butera), while others were taken over by higher end markets (Heinen's).

However, nobody wants to set up shop on the south side. It was reported that the Dominick's on 71st needs $6 million of new equipment, which seems prohibitive, but is anyone else moving into South Shore? I'm not limiting that to Heinen's, Whole Foods, Fresh Market, and Mariano's, but any produce merchant?

No big business isn't the whole problem nor did I say it was, but whether anyone wants to acknowledge it or not, corporate execs' preconceived notions for some of the companies involved in the equation one way or another does play some part in it. You said yourself no one wants to do business in the Jeffery and 71st location. Why do you think that is when median annual income in South Shore is approximately $27,000, which by some scales is lower middle income? It's definitely higher than Englewood. But getting beyond that point though, Art is right that folks want to put up a fuss about people on the south side not choosing healthier food choices but don't want to acknowledge that a lot of times the healthier choices strain a lot of families' budgets on that side of town.

[jajuan]

The transplanted 4300s are probably operating on the Blue Line Shuttle over the weekend.

Yeah after looking at the schedules of planned work again, it looks like they're alternating the weekends between Blue Line shuttles and Orange Line shuttles, which happens to be this weekend's shuttle bus work. That actually makes sense because that would be too much of a strain if they didn't want to affect artic deployments on regular service routes trying to run two different shuttle routes at the same time even if it is the weekend and not as many artics are needed on regular bus routes that artics currently normally get assigned.

[sw4400]

I don't really understand the transplant of 4000's for 4300's or 4333's. The only difference is the 4300's and 4333's are 5-6 years newer than the 4000's. Both have about the same number of seats(54), so it shouldn't really matter which bus model operates the "L" Shuttles during construction shutdown.

[Mr.cta85]

I don't really understand the transplant of 4000's for 4300's or 4333's. The only difference is the 4300's and 4333's are 5-6 years newer than the 4000's. Both have about the same number of seats(54), so it shouldn't really matter which bus model operates the "L" Shuttles during construction shutdown.

Yea I agree totally with you sw4400 I don't understand why they need the 4300's just for the blue and orange line shuttles when they can use the 4000 series instead I'm pretty sure the passengers won't mind nor do they care.

[andrethebusman]

Mariano's was basically a grudge match against Dominick's. Bob Mariano used to work for Dominick's and got pushed out. So he went to Roundy's and cut a deal - help me drive Dominick's out of Chicago. Dominick's had a reputation for high prices, deserved or not. Mariano's is almost a carbon copy of Dominick's in many ways, but they have carefully built a reputation of being "high quality at lower prices". So Safeway gave in and skipped town.

Regarding WalMart, there are what, a half dozen Walmart "neighborhood markets" in addition to the four Superstores in the City now? Walmart will soon drive Jewel out, a lot of folks are saying. And even the ones who hate Walmart for various reasons agree that is the best bang for your buck. If Walmart were to set up shop at 64th and Halsted, Whole Foods would be gone in a month. These guys are basically figuring everyone has to eat, and if they are the only game in the area, they will get lots of business, even if their prices are a bit above average. Convenience does count for something. Food4Less at 70th/Ashland is just far enough away from 63/Halsted that if one is walking one would not want to walk that far. Note that there is a Aldi's almost next door at 63/Union, but that is in a totally different class, basically Spirit Airlines VS United.

[andrethebusman]

The use of 4300's VS 4000's seems to be a case of "let's use the newest so we can impress everybody". This was certainly the case during the Red Line shuttles from 103rd. In the whole five months maybe four times a 4000 made it out there, and then only until they could trade it off with a 4300 that was pulling in.

[andrethebusman]

I posted the link in my prior message. Can't you even click?

The Durbin page the link goes to mentions buying hybrid buses, but there is not word one about "converting" anything to hybrids. In addition, given the date, I wonder if this actually refers to the planned purchase of 150 or so additional artics that was being kicked around when the 7900's were being planned, in addition to the 4300's?

Secondly, 4000-4149 and 4300-4399 were NFIL "production slots" that CTA bought off Seattle, not an actual "order". Likewise 4150-4207 were WMATA (Washington) "production slots". It is common practice for builders to plan production up to a year in advance, given the time that it takes to obtain the various components that go into each order. These are not at this point firm orders, and the builder in essence is assembling parts "on speculation" until a firm order is finally made, usually when the grant comes thru. If during that year things change as far as the potential customer is concerned, often because a grant gets reduced or not awarded, that customer can and will sell those slots to somebody else who wants faster delivery and are willing to take something that isn't quite to their normal specs to get them faster. Sometimes, there are no takers, and the slots are simply abandoned, which results in such things as Gillig serials on 2011 built buses being among 2008 serials. Somebody gave up a planned order, and years later, Gillig finally filled in the serials.

[andrethebusman]

I don't really understand the transplant of 4000's for 4300's or 4333's. The only difference is the 4300's and 4333's are 5-6 years newer than the 4000's. Both have about the same number of seats(54), so it shouldn't really matter which bus model operates the "L" Shuttles during construction shutdown.

4150-4207 are 50-seaters - the 4 seats in the articulation joint are not there!

[busfan2847]

I don't really understand the transplant of 4000's for 4300's or 4333's. The only difference is the 4300's and 4333's are 5-6 years newer than the 4000's. Both have about the same number of seats(54), so it shouldn't really matter which bus model operates the "L" Shuttles during construction shutdown.

They do not have the same number of seats. While 4000-4150 are 54 seaters, 4151-4207 are 50 seaters with no seats in the articulation, and the 4300 are 64 seaters as they do not have perimeter seating. I assume cta prefer buses with more seats on the shuttles as they did for the Brown & Red line closures last year.