Dan Ryan Track Renewal Project

[jajuan]

< 50 cent discount fares >

Does that mean the fare is 50c or 50c off the nominal fare ?

Do seniors get it for 25c ?

That's a very good question. The website just has this worded as '50 cent discounted bus rides on many South Side bus routes' being offered as one of the five transit options South Side Red Line riders will have. As far as the shuttle buses go, according to the map there will be five shuttle routes, one from 63rd to 95th that makes stops at those closed Red Line stations, and one route each beginning at Garfield/Green Line (temporary Red) station and ending at 69th, 79th, 87th and 95th with no stops between that terminating station and the Garfield station.

[CURRENTZ_09]

My understanding is those Green Line stations south of Roosevelt to Ashland/63rd would see 24 hour service since the Red Line is a 24 hr route, and that would leave the Blue Line alone in 24 hour operation on the rail side if the didn't, but yes that have to pass that smell test. I agree on that. One other observation is they say they are giving 50 cent discount fares on the bus routes in the affected area, another way to entice folks to go along with this wild plan. Between the North Side Main seeing station refurbishment and this Dan Ryan project, the Red Line is indeed goiing to be a headache for people the next couple years.

I don't know but at least they are continuing Red Line service to the Southside, even if it is operating on the Green Line Tracks. I can agree with the 50 cent discount, is this a way to keep riders from leaving CTA? The thing that we as riders and observers have to understand that after decades of mistreatment by CTA management, riders will have to face this crediable challenge of riding the CTA. Public transit is supposed to be easier than driving, traveling through the CTA has become like a Survivor challenge and which ever riders can't take the heat, then your voted off to your car. CTA, you have better sell this Red Line Shut Down like you were selling people a new Escalade, because this is going to be a Very Tough Sell Period

And then, after operating Night Owl service on the Green Line, how are you going to be able to easily just say now were going to resume Owl service on the Dan Ryan and the elevated will go back to regular operation. This is really a though sell for southside Green & Red Line riders, CTA you better treat these riders right

[See Tea Eh]

Exactly, i mean they cut the Green Line to Cottage Grove with out notice after leaving the structure up for over a year after the Green Line reopened. Another question is, is this another way to eliminate Night Owl service on the Red Line, will either 63 or 69 be closed for good, they claim that 3 stations will become ADA certified but you just have to wonder:Do I Smell a 1996 happening again? Also, why is it that the southside lines get the full shut down, but the Brown and Blue Cermak Branch (Pink) didnt get full shut downs (Blue Cermak Branch got shut down on the weekend due to the 1998 cuts and it was reasonable to complete working during that time)

I don't know why you're suspicious of this. Other than the need to shut down service while work progresses, there really isn't any comparison between the old Green Line rebuild and the current Red Line. There's no preacher that owns a bunch of land above the Dan Ryan that wants the service shut down, for one.

As for your question about why the Red Line gets shut down but the Brown Line didn't, that's specifically answered on CTA's official page on the project.

When CTA rebuilt the Brown Line in the mid-2000s, the line remained open. Why must the Red Line completely close?

The Brown Line project involved station reconstructions. The Red Line South project involves the actual tracks on which trains run. It is impossible to do the Red Line work while trains are running.

This project is more akin to the reconstruction of the Green Line from 1994-1996, when the entire line was closed for reconstruction of both track and stations (though this project has a much smaller scope and duration).

(And lest anyone think that the second paragraph of the above quote contradicts my earlier statement, I'm saying that the political dynamics of Red south vs. Green/East 63rd are different, not the fact that service gets shut down)

[CURRENTZ_09]

I don't know why you're suspicious of this. Other than the need to shut down service while work progresses, there really isn't any comparison between the old Green Line rebuild and the current Red Line. There's no preacher that owns a bunch of land above the Dan Ryan that wants the service shut down, for one.

As for your question about why the Red Line gets shut down but the Brown Line didn't, that's specifically answered on CTA's official page on the project.

(And lest anyone think that the second paragraph of the above quote contradicts my earlier statement, I'm saying that the political dynamics of Red south vs. Green/East 63rd are different, not the fact that service gets shut down)

The Whole issue behind this is the Fact that after months of rumors and fears, this is close to becoming a reality. CTA has a history of shutting and rebuliding lines and lying to customers, so when this rumor became true, we all paniced like hell!!!!!!!!! This isn't about the fact CTA is shutting down the Red Line, It's the Fact that they are Selling a Shut Down of the Red Line to customers like it is just the thing to do and then to do it like the CTA wants to do it because it is the CTA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So what you just stated has fact to it, but the fact of the matter is will it have truth behind it or will it cloud a bunch of smoke behind it?

[See Tea Eh]

I don't know but at least they are continuing Red Line service to the Southside, even if it is operating on the Green Line Tracks. I can agree with the 50 cent discount, is this a way to keep riders from leaving CTA? The thing that we as riders and observers have to understand that after decades of mistreatment by CTA management, riders will have to face this crediable challenge of riding the CTA. Public transit is supposed to be easier than driving, traveling through the CTA has become like a Survivor challenge and which ever riders can't take the heat, then your voted off to your car. CTA, you have better sell this Red Line Shut Down like you were selling people a new Escalade, because this is going to be a Very Tough Sell Period

Oh, gee, the sky is falling. Heaven help us.

CTA has done rail construction projects in the past. They've built new lines, they've rebuilt lines, extended lines, rebuilt stations, etc. This is nothing new. I don't know what "decades of mistreatment" you're referring to, but the service, overall, is fine. Calling CTA a "Survivor challenge" is laughable, and certainly doesn't jive with recent rider satisfaction surveys.

That said, given the traffic congestion, ongoing construction work, high costs of fuel and parking, not to mention the high cost of owning the car itself (I'm sure many folks don't even own one), how are they going to abandon CTA and turn to their car?

And then, after operating Night Owl service on the Green Line, how are you going to be able to easily just say now were going to resume Owl service on the Dan Ryan and the elevated will go back to regular operation

Easily. By telling people that the service is going back to the way it was just five months earlier (you know, the service that you and everyone else is up in arms about changing right now). Half the stations on the Green Line that would see owl service are within walking distance of comparable stops on the Red Line.

If you really need to get to 63rd & Ashland, you can take the 63 (or the 9), the same as people are doing today.

[CURRENTZ_09]

Oh, gee, the sky is falling. Heaven help us.

CTA has done rail construction projects in the past. They've built new lines, they've rebuilt lines, extended lines, rebuilt stations, etc. This is nothing new. I don't know what "decades of mistreatment" you're referring to, but the service, overall, is fine. Calling CTA a "Survivor challenge" is laughable, and certainly doesn't jive with recent rider satisfaction surveys.

That said, given the traffic congestion, ongoing construction work, high costs of fuel and parking, not to mention the high cost of owning the car itself (I'm sure many folks don't even own one), how are they going to abandon CTA and turn to their car?

Easily. By telling people that the service is going back to the way it was just five months earlier (you know, the service that you and everyone else is up in arms about changing right now). Half the stations on the Green Line that would see owl service are within walking distance of comparable stops on the Red Line.

If you really need to get to 63rd & Ashland, you can take the 63 (or the 9), the same as people are doing today.

I understand you points of interest................but the CTA has a History of Lying!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It's No Shade but the CTA has lied in a grand scale project like this

[See Tea Eh]

I understand you points of interest................but the CTA has a History of Lying!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It's No Shade but the CTA has lied in a grand scale project like this

Examples...

[jajuan]

Sea Tea Eh, as stated the issue isn't that they are doing the project. The issue is they do have a history of not giving people all the info or doing what the heck they want anyway after getting input from the public, thus giving the impression that public meetings are nothing more than patronizing exercises at giving the appearance of listening to the public when their mind is already made up. And they do have a very big sell job on their hands from the standpoint that they have to explain to south Red Line riders that instead of riding past the increasingly gun riddled Englewood, they now have to ride right in the midst of it for five months while the Red is shutdown. So sure while rail projects have happened in the past, the CTA's track record in communicating with the public affected by those projects really does need a lot of work. To throw in examples beyond their chopping down the 63rd street leg of the Green Line, the west end of the same line saw the loss of the Homan station with a later replacement in the form of the Central Park station with no direct bus service, creating the scenario that granted the Central Park location is more efficient in terms of not being right next to Kedzie, riders if they want to transfer from the 82 at night they have to walk a couple of blocks through a seedy neighborhood. There was promise of stations at Western and Damen that never materialized. And the West Loop finally after 16 years sees a replacement of the Halsted station in the form of Morgan two blocks off from the 8 and again creating the scenario of walking two blocks through a seedy neighborhood from a bus at night to get to the rail. And of course there was the impression given that riders at the south end on the Ashland branch would have the Wentworth and Racine stations but of course those stations are now no more.

[artthouwill]

Sea Tea Eh, as stated the issue isn't that they are doing the project. The issue is they do have a history of not giving people all the info or doing what the heck they want anyway after getting input from the public, thus giving the impression that public meetings are nothing more than patronizing exercises at giving the appearance of listening to the public when their mind is already made up. And they do have a very big sell job on their hands from the standpoint that they have to explain to south Red Line riders that instead of riding past the increasingly gun riddled Englewood, they now have to ride right in the midst of it for five months while the Red is shutdown. So sure while rail projects have happened in the past, the CTA's track record in communicating with the public affected by those projects really does need a lot of work. To throw in examples beyond their chopping down the 63rd street leg of the Green Line, the west end of the same line saw the loss of the Homan station with a later replacement in the form of the Central Park station with no direct bus service, creating the scenario that granted the Central Park location is more efficient in terms of not being right next to Kedzie, riders if they want to transfer from the 82 at night they have to walk a couple of blocks through a seedy neighborhood. There was promise of stations at Western and Damen that never materialized. And the West Loop finally after 16 years sees a replacement of the Halsted station in the form of Morgan two blocks off from the 8 and again creating the scenario of walking two blocks through a seedy neighborhood from a bus at night to get to the rail. And of course there was the impression given that riders at the south end on the Ashland branch would have the Wentworth and Racine stations but of course those stations are now no more.

Actually, most of the Red Line riders would NOT have to ride through Englewood during the five month shut down as most buses would probably run State St to Garfield, and the Englewood community sits west of State. It's not like the Wild hundreds aren't gun riddled along with Chatham, Roseland, etc. A major inconvenience, yes. I think this is a golden opportunity for Metra to market its Electric and/or Rock Island service.

I agree that most CTA public hearings are just mere legal formalities and their minds are already made up. It appears that Pace at least "listens" to its constituents and adjusts accordingly.

[jajuan]

Actually, most of the Red Line riders would NOT have to ride through Englewood during the five month shut down as most buses would probably run State St to Garfield, and the Englewood community sits west of State. It's not like the Wild hundreds aren't gun riddled along with Chatham, Roseland, etc. A major inconvenience, yes. I think this is a golden opportunity for Metra to market its Electric and/or Rock Island service.

I agree that most CTA public hearings are just mere legal formalities and their minds are already made up. It appears that Pace at least "listens" to its constituents and adjusts accordingly.

Noted and I'm quite aware of where Englewood sits. But if we're talking about perception which ultimately we are when we get down to CTA still has to sell this to an 84,000 strong weekday riding public, this is going to be the impression given by virtue of Red Line trains handling all the service on what folks out that way look upon as the Englewood Branch of the Green Line and based on folks not wanting to really cram into what are going to be some fairly crowded shuttle buses given current ridership patterns of the Red Line.

[Busjack]

The Tribune is reporting that "On Red Line platforms Monday, the plan wasn’t selling" and that Emanuel was conspicuous by his absence, even though this is supposedly his signature project.

Let the vehement dissent begin.

Also, "The daring plan to close the entire Dan Ryan branch had been a well-kept secret, allowing transit officials to muster their talking points and their alternative routes." I guess not.

[MetroShadow]

Project management dictates that the five month shutdown is worth the hassle than to endure the same "why haven't this -ish been done sooner" bullcrap argument through 2017. Now, the question of whether or not it'll get done in 5 months is another story.

This is similar to what's going on the 7 and L lines in NYC. Those lines went (or are going through) signal and track fixtures so that both lines can operate efficiently (most notably, CBTC). That also means weekend closures (and the pains of people complaining). Unfortunately for both lines, you can't shut them down for five-plus months.

If it's too much of a problem, go to the Metra. You've got lines covering both sides of the line, 95th to 35th (or McCormick Place if that suits your line). Hopefully the service boards can coordinate officially.

Let it ride, and let's hear the alternatives (aside from what's already presented) before we cast hell amongst the Dan Ryan.

[Guest]

In my opinion they should not concentrate so much on the Red Line reconstruction but rebuild the Loop L and give it amore modern look. The Loop L is almost three times as old as the RL. Im sure it would be a commuter nightmare but I thnk the rebuilding of the rapid transit system shouldve started there.

[Amtrak41]

Do they have a bus fleet large enough to run all these south side shuttles to the South Side elevated ?

Perhaps retain the 11 year old Novas they planned to junk ?

Honor CTA passes on the Metra South Chicago Branch and cut CTA buses in the area to release buses ?

[jajuan]

Do they have a bus fleet large enough to run all these south side shuttles to the South Side elevated ?

Perhaps retain thee 11 year old Novas they planned to junk ?

Honor CTA passes on the Metra South Chicago Branch and cut CTA buses in the area to release buses ?

Well if you look at the 100 More New Flyers thread, Busjack makes a convincing case that the 100 New Flyer artics CTA announced that they would be purchasing off Seattle's options are really for use as the Dan Ryan shuttles rather than the boiler plate that they are for partial retirement of the Novas.

[dann]

Well if you look at the 100 More New Flyers thread, Busjack makes a convincing case that the 100 New Flyer artics CTA announced that they would be purchasing off Seattle's options are really for use as the Dan Ryan shuttles rather than the boiler plate that they are for partial retirement of the Novas.

But obviously they (the 100 NFs) will replace the oldest Novas after the Red Line project is finished. I think the CTA will hold on to everything (meaning no Novas will be junked) until the Red Line project is finished.

[Sam92]

Do they have a bus fleet large enough to run all these south side shuttles to the South Side elevated ?

Perhaps retain the 11 year old Novas they planned to junk ?

Honor CTA passes on the Metra South Chicago Branch and cut CTA buses in the area to release buses ?

Rock Island should probably honor passes for people on the west too.

[Busjack]

Why are you doubting this?

To reinforce what I said then, go to Hilkevitch's column, for which there is a link on the home page:

The reason to be hopeful is that the alternative service plan announced by the CTA represents only a first draft, CTA officials told your Getting Around reporter.

....

Metra has excess capacity, particularly on "the Rock,"

Does any of this sound familiar? Or do the leakers (and Frosty and Terry on ABC7 yesterday) really have the Final Word?*

___

*No, Fox has that.

[artthouwill]

To reinforce what I said then, go to Hilkevitch's column, for which there is a link on the home page:

Does any of this sound familiar? Or do the leakers (and Frosty and Terry on ABC7 yesterday) really have the Final Word?*

___

*No, Fox has that.

It is a shame that longtime transit riders still don't know how to get around town on public transit if their main option is taken away for whatever reason. Worse, the media panders to this and makes a good siutation bad, a bad situation worse, and a worse situation grave. Even worse, officials don't know how to utilize existing options and promote those to help ease the potential nightmare that could occur.

Metra is an option for those south siders whose final destination is downtown. Though the Beverly branch of the RI may be a stretch for a lot of riders, there are two stops along Vincennes Ave (95th and 103rd) that are primarily used rush hours only. Certainly these two stops can be used throughout the day if RI ran additional trains. Plus there is the Gresham stop which is a mile west of the 87th Red Line station. The 95th Chicago STate, 87th, and 79th Chatham mainline ME stations are a mile to a mile and a half east of parallel Red Line stations and within walking distance for many that use the east west crosstown routes to transfer to the Red Line.

For those riders whose final destination is beyond downtown and Metra is NOT an option, there are still alternatives. First, I would not run shuttles from any Red Line stations other than 95th and 87th. Why not? Well, there are north south buses running along Ashland, Halsted, King Drive and Cottage Grove that would connect to 63rd Street Green Line stations accordingly. Riders from 79th northward have those options. CTA could even consider reopening the Racine station temporarily during the Ryan shutdown, thus the 44 Wallace/Racine becomes a viable option as well. It would be better to add additional buses along those routes and short turn at 63rd if necessary. The 29 STate st bus can serve passengers riding between 95th and Garfield. For the Cottage Grove branch Green Line riders that normally would take the Red Line, it is a matter of either transferring to a Red Line train at Garfield, or staying on the Green Line and transferring at a Loop station to a Purple, Orange, or Brown Line train, or at Clark/Lake for a Blue Line train.

Perhaps Metra can help by designating all of the RI and ME inner city and Blue Island stations as Zone B, and perhaps "upsell" the fact that monthly passes can be used on all Metra lines for those south siders traveling to suburbs like Evanston, Schaumburg, Northbrook, etc.

As far as Pace is concerned, I would not change any routes or extend them as shuttles. However, I would suggest Pace work out something with Metra for honoring Pace transfers at select stations, like 121st/Halsted, 121st/State (Michigan), 95th/Wood, 95th/Vincennes, and the Blue Island stations. Most south suburban riders would probably prefer to transfer to a Metra train than ride to 95th, transfer to a shuttle bus, and transfer to a Red Line train at Garfield, but that would still be an option for those who choose it.

BTW, it is too bad the old railroad station at 6rd/Parnell couldn't be reopened for SWS trains to service during those 5 months.

[Busjack]

Perhaps Metra can help by designating all of the RI and ME inner city and Blue Island stations as Zone B..

Perhaps, as suggested later on by Hilkevitch, CTA could decide whether makes more sense to spend the apparent part of their "Build Illinois" earmark on transfers to Metra instead of free buses. The Red Line may be closed down either way, but one wonders if it is worth it to CTA to use that money to pay for 200 temporary drivers on routes that generate no revenue, with the effects Hilkevitch suggested.

The impression I got from the article is that Metra has the excess capacity, so the only question is whether they would be paid for letting CTA riders on it.

Apparently, though, it isn't like the UP Ravenswood station or the Purple Line, where Carole Brown asked Carole Doris to put on more trains on the UPN line, which are still there as the runs starting in Winnetka, without giving those riders free fares during Three Track.

Anyway, Mike Payne posted on the CTA Tattler that he was going to be at the CTA board meeting, so we'll see if they have their hearing aids on (as I noted there).

[ChicagoNova]

http://www.suntimes.com/13058936-761/cta-promises-frequent-alternate-trains-shuttles-during-red-line-shutdown.html

[MetroShadow]

http://www.suntimes.com/13058936-761/cta-promises-frequent-alternate-trains-shuttles-during-red-line-shutdown.html

The first part of the article (re: switching to the Garfield Green) leaves so much left out variable-wise; but bringing up the previous point (as I've heard in the media before) that the media will try to make this a bad thing (when honestly it's not). Even the tribune article from yesterday makes it seem like this is the worst idea to do a total shutdown (still, rubbish) before any detailed plans have been made.

As for cross honoring: if the CTA and Metra could afford it (and get it through IG agreement or otherwise), probably extend from Blue Island (on the Rock and Electric) and Riverdale (those 353 riders might get a reprieve) northward...

[jajuan]

And for all the critques that folks are making this out to be more than it is, it's funny how the one key point has been and still is being missed, which is if CTA had not built up this history of lack of credibility on things there wouldn't be all this lack of trust toward this current project now. The catch 22 is do they really want to be actively steering large numbers of its current customers over to another transit board and possibly not have them come back to its rail service after the project is over? But of course this project and the dynamics of getting 31,000 passengers from A to B during the peak time frame that article references points to why having three distinct transit agencies financially overseen by yet one more board only serves to drag down what transit has the potential to be in this city and the surrounding suburbs. As I said before, I agree that CTA has to quit with the temporary band aids in getting its infrastructure up to date, but it has been its own worst enemy in garnering the public's trust. Now we see why it's important to get high marks on the customer service side of transit.

Edited June 13, 2012 by jajuan

[Amtrak41]

< current customers over to another transit board >

That is the problem in Chicago: PACE, METRA and CTA are We, They, and Them.

You'd think it was Pennsy, NY Central, and New Haven.

[jajuan]

< current customers over to another transit board >

That is the problem in Chicago: PACE, METRA and CTA are We, They, and Them.

You'd think it was Pennsy, NY Central, and New Haven.

You got to the crux of the thought that came to my mind to expand upon as I was fixing typos in my post. The true bit of what makes this worse than it needs to be is the fact that bureaucracy at the top in Chicago transit is overly complicated so working out alternatives when big projects arise to make much needed overhauls to badly aging infrastructure is as we see more complicated than it needs be.