Dan Ryan Track Renewal Project

[jajuan]

One other thing that caught my eye is the routes that get extended or rerouted during the shutdown will be the N5, 8A, 44, 48, 51, 59, 71 and 169. We knew about the 8A and 71, but I see there is no mention of the 30. Did they change their minds about extend this one? I also wonder if there will be any that don't go back to pre-shutdown routing because remember 39, 43, 51, and 59 got those loops added to have them serve the Red Line in both directions during the Green Line shutdown but never had those extensions eliminated when the Green Line reopened although the West Side bus extensions to the Blue Line were. If anything we saw the 75 get extended to the 79th Red Line station in both directions over a decade after the Green Line project because it was the only east-west South SIde route crossing the Dan Ryan that didn't serve a Dan Ryan Red Line station.

[New Flyer]

New rail is being dropped off at the 16th portal, and next to the Cermak station. New track and gravel are getting ready to be installed at Lawrence looks like for the purple line tracks southbound.

[Busjack]

... I also wonder if there will be any that don't go back to pre-shutdown routing because remember 39, 43, 51, and 59 got those loops added to have them serve the Red Line in both directions during the Green Line shutdown but never had those extensions eliminated when the Green Line reopened although the West Side bus extensions to the Blue Line were. If anything we saw the 75 get extended to the 79th Red Line station in both directions over a decade after the Green Line project because it was the only east-west South SIde route crossing the Dan Ryan that didn't serve a Dan Ryan Red Line station.

The issue will be whether the 5 month disruption will encourage riders from 51st to Pershing to stay with the Green Line after the Red Line is fixed. The converse was certainly not true, as the South Side main never regained the old level of ridership. Given that when the E.L.Jack (signs while the Green Line was being rebuilt for Englewood, Lake, and Jackson Park) was connected as the Green Line, the Green Line riders were complaining about having to make a transfer at State and Lake to get to the North side, I'm not betting that people stay on the Green Line after the Red Line reopens. Of course, people on the 15, 47, 43, and 39 buses always had a choice after 1996.

75th is the only exception, as there never was a Green Line choice.

[jajuan]

The issue will be whether the 5 month disruption will encourage riders from 51st to Pershing to stay with the Green Line after the Red Line is fixed. The converse was certainly not true, as the South Side main never regained the old level of ridership. Given that when the E.L.Jack (signs while the Green Line was being rebuilt for Englewood, Lake, and Jackson Park) was connected as the Green Line, the Green Line riders were complaining about having to make a transfer at State and Lake to get to the North side, I'm not betting that people stay on the Green Line after the Red Line reopens. Of course, people on the 15, 47, 43, and 39 buses always had a choice after 1996.

75th is the only exception, as there never was a Green Line choice.

Good point. I sometimes wonder what was the original thinking behind having the southern portions of those two lines so close together outside of the both being close to the Lake between downtown and maybe Cermak.

[Busjack]

Good point. I sometimes wonder what was the original thinking behind having the southern portions of those two lines so close together outside of the both being close to the Lake between downtown and maybe Cermak.

Original thought was that the Dan Ryan would supplement the then overloaded south main.

However, Andre has the theory that the south main would have been yanked and a ramp would have gone up to the L at 63rd. Fortunately for 2013, that didn't happen.

[jajuan]

Original thought was that the Dan Ryan would supplement the then overloaded south main.

However, Andre has the theory that the south main would have been yanked and a ramp would have gone up to the L at 63rd. Fortunately for 2013, that didn't happen.

Oh yeah that would have been a disaster with the much needed rebuild of the Dan Ryan starting right around the corner.

[chicagopcclcar]

Oh yeah that would have been a disaster with the much needed rebuild of the Dan Ryan starting right around the corner.

The proposed ramp into the expanded right-of-way would not have affected the Dan Ryan. The proposal was for a connection with the Englewood 'L' and serving the extension of the Englewood 'L' all the way to Midway Airport. Intervening in this project was the social upheaval and racial change of the south side. The Midway connection was made from another direction, today, known as the Orange line.

[Busjack]

The proposed ramp into the expanded right-of-way would not have affected the Dan Ryan. The proposal was for a connection with the Englewood 'L' and serving the extension of the Englewood 'L' all the way to Midway Airport. Intervening in this project was the social upheaval and racial change of the south side. The Midway connection was made from another direction, today, known as the Orange line.

Yeah, but the point was what would happen if the South Main were demolished. I'm sure you have the inside poop from the planning department on that.

[chicagopcclcar]

Yeah, but the point was what would happen if the South Main were demolished. I'm sure you have the inside poop from the planning department on that.

Well, first, "Inside poop" is not in my vernacular.

Next are you or is someone else saying that there was a plan to tear down the Englewood Jackson Park elevated?

[artthouwill]

I remember there being some talk in the late 80s concerning demolishing the SSM, as there was a very wide disparity in ridership on the SSM vs the heavily traveled NSM, but then they started working on the new tunnel and the 16th St portal connecting the DR to the State St subway. When CTA finally publicized its intent on swapping the south side transit lines with the other end's counterpart, the fear was CTA would actually go through with demolishing the SSM, and closing the Green Line for 2 years stoked those fears more.

It is a good thing the SSM is still around as the Dan Ryan project emphasizes its need. Add to that CTA restoring a Cermak stop on the Green.Line.

Again, I've advocated ditching both 63rd Street branches in favor of extending the Green Line along the Skyway on abandoned right of way, or routing the Green Line via the old Dan Ryan routing from the Loop to Garfield, then build a ramp at 59th, then travel SE next to the railroad tracks until it gets by the Skyway and gets on the abandoned ROW. If the SSM is not torn down, then this could.become the new Purple route with routing through the.13th street portal and the State St subway.

[Busjack]

Well, first, "Inside poop" is not in my vernacular.

Next are you or is someone else saying that there was a plan to tear down the Englewood Jackson Park elevated?

Maybe you can talk to Andre about that.

[chicagopcclcar]

Maybe you can talk to Andre about that.

Who is "Andre." I don't know him, really.

[Busjack]

Who is "Andre." I don't know him, really.

Well, sorry then. You seem to be on all the transit boards, so search them.

[BusHunter]

I remember there being some talk in the late 80s concerning demolishing the SSM, as there was a very wide disparity in ridership on the SSM vs the heavily traveled NSM, but then they started working on the new tunnel and the 16th St portal connecting the DR to the State St subway. When CTA finally publicized its intent on swapping the south side transit lines with the other end's counterpart, the fear was CTA would actually go through with demolishing the SSM, and closing the Green Line for 2 years stoked those fears more.

It is a good thing the SSM is still around as the Dan Ryan project emphasizes its need. Add to that CTA restoring a Cermak stop on the Green.Line.

Again, I've advocated ditching both 63rd Street branches in favor of extending the Green Line along the Skyway on abandoned right of way, or routing the Green Line via the old Dan Ryan routing from the Loop to Garfield, then build a ramp at 59th, then travel SE next to the railroad tracks until it gets by the Skyway and gets on the abandoned ROW. If the SSM is not torn down, then this could.become the new Purple route with routing through the.13th street portal and the State St subway.

That may be a problem since the skyway got leased. The city no longer controls it. I don't know if an "L" median has ever been constructed on a toll road in the US, and competed against it's tolls. The STAR line would have challenged that theory, but we know what happened to it.

[Busjack]

That may be a problem since the skyway got leased. The city no longer controls it. I don't know if an "L" median has ever been constructed on a toll road in the US, and competed against it's tolls. The STAR line would have challenged that theory, but we know what happened to it.

My impression from what art previously said was not that it would be put on the Skyway right of way (which IIRC doesn't have a median) but on the railroad r.o.w. next to it.

But like most of the preceding couple of days' posts, entirely hypothetical.

[Mike Payne]

One other thing that caught my eye is the routes that get extended or rerouted during the shutdown will be the N5, 8A, 44, 48, 51, 59, 71 and 169. We knew about the 8A and 71, but I see there is no mention of the 30. Did they change their minds about extend this one? I also wonder if there will be any that don't go back to pre-shutdown routing because remember 39, 43, 51, and 59 got those loops added to have them serve the Red Line in both directions during the Green Line shutdown but never had those extensions eliminated when the Green Line reopened although the West Side bus extensions to the Blue Line were. If anything we saw the 75 get extended to the 79th Red Line station in both directions over a decade after the Green Line project because it was the only east-west South SIde route crossing the Dan Ryan that didn't serve a Dan Ryan Red Line station.

I won't say that I had anything to do with it, but I contacted CTA repeatedly over several years about connecting the 75th St bus (and the 18th St bus) to the Red Line -- because I used both of them regularly at the time; and for whatever the reason, they eventually did.

[MetroShadow]

That may be a problem since the skyway got leased. The city no longer controls it. I don't know if an "L" median has ever been constructed on a toll road in the US, and competed against it's tolls. The STAR line would have challenged that theory, but we know what happened to it.

See: MetroRail's Silver Line. [Will] Operate in the middle of the Dulles Toll Road.

[mkohut]

Its the same Mayor who gave away the Parking Meters and the Skyway.

[Busjack]

See: MetroRail's Silver Line. [Will] Operate in the middle of the Dulles Toll Road.

That becomes the issue of what entity owns the various components. From your second link, the Metropolitan Washington Airports Authority appears to own all three.

Here we have a mix of that the City of Chicago owns the Skyway, subject to whatever rights the Australian-Spanish consortium has in the Skyway lease. There would have to be either an agreement or condemnation to take over a couple of lanes, either of which would require that the city pay back some of the money it received up front.

I'm not saying it can't be done--there were reports that the Illinois Tollway Authority was willing to include space for the STAR Line, and later Pace express bus service when it rebuilds the Jane Addams. But that can't be done without an agreement.

[MetroShadow]

Ladies and Gentlemen, good morning:

Let us all foam and analyze the Red Line South Kerfuffle alternatives.

[Busjack]

Ladies and Gentlemen, good morning:

Let us all foam and analyze the Red Line South Kerfuffle alternatives.

How dare you imply anything?

However, the following seems confused: "Green Line customers needing to travel to/from Ashland/63rd should

transfer between Red Line trains serving Ashland/63rd and Green Line trains at Garfield." If they are referring to passengers from Lake Street, they should transfer at Roosevelt or wherever on the Loop L, in either case to the subway, unless they were already on a Cottage Grove train.

At least the Owl Shuttle got its own bold heading.

For whoever asked, there are brochures there for each neighborhood.

Maybe of note:

• The maps in those brochures show the bus extensions, such as 8A to 63rd. 71 and N5 go up State to Garfield, but 30 ends at 69rh.
• The brochures indicate routes such as 3 and 4 to go downtown, but don't mention any additional service.
• The Metra alternatives have the legend "(requires separate fare payment)."

[Mike Payne]

Metra urges CTA riders to try its trains when Red Line closes May 19

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/ct-met-metra-cta-alternatives-20130426,0,5631621.story

Attention CTA riders: Metra has its eyes on you when the Red Line shuts down the

South Side branch May 19 for major reconstruction.

The commuter rail agency is cooperating with the CTA to accommodate customers

left scrambling during the five months when the 10-mile Red Line stretch from

Cermak-Chinatown to 95th Street will be rebuilt at a cost of $425 million.

[..]

THE BATTLE BEGINS.......

Mike Payne

[MetroShadow]

It's not really a battle when the gameplan seems to be set for the agencies. I still haven't heard any concrete plans from Metra (as expected).

[Mike Payne]

It's not really a battle when the gameplan seems to be set for the agencies. I still haven't heard any concrete plans from Metra (as expected).

I mean MY "tilting-at-windmills" battle with CTA and Metra to adopt the CTA Gray Line Proposal: http://www.grayline.20m.com/

And I now have on my side a new Lexmark Color Laser printer that can turn out up to 35,000 copies per month ( http://www1.lexmark.com/en_US/products/brochures/c544n-brochure.pdf ) of the Gray Line Color Fliers as posted on the Gray Line Website above.

I will have thousands of Fliers to hand out at any upcoming Meetings -- and at Bus, 'L', and in-city Metra Electric stops during the shutdown, to gain Public support.

[Busjack]

I will have thousands of Fliers to hand out at any upcoming Meetings -- and at Bus, 'L', and in-city Metra Electric stops during the shutdown, to gain Public support.

And CTA has brochures saying "(requires separate fare payment)" [see above].

And Pace noted a Regional Interagency Fare Policy in its March Minutes that stresses each service board's statutory right to set its own fares.

So, being rational about this, what do you think is going to happen? People using the free fares downtown, compared to $4.25 from Zone C on Metra.

Sure Metra wants more customers. However, it won't get any appreciable number of them based on free vs. $4.25 unless this CTA replacement plan goes totally into the toilet.